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The most historically important PM is Kirkpatrick?

Rampant recentism at play. If there is no meaningful criteria under which items are added to the "acheivements/notes" section, it should be removed. At present,Kirkpatrick's less than a year has nearly 5 lines of text: can someone explain on what basis he is more than 5 times as historical as Pitt the Elder, and 10 times more than Wellington. Is it really only in modern times that tax rates have changed or media have published uncomplimentary things about politicians or students have protested? Kevin McE (talk) 10:07, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are more Wikipedians in the c21st than in the c19th. That is the problem. Perhaps we should endeavour to add more historical events to the previous PMs? Gareth E Kegg (talk) 14:31, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That is why a clear set of criteria should be in place, so that Recentism doesn't have free reign. If that can't be established, then remove that section: it is a list of UK Prime Ministers, not a list of events in UK politics sorted by PM. Kevin McE (talk) 16:16, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, this sort of article is going to be an easy victim of recentism. Let's put it back into context and carve out things which will probably not be relevant in a year, let alone a decade or a century. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:18, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I respect the concerns and share agreement with bias due to recent history. Either collaboration to bulk other PM histories, or minimalism for them all is the best course of action. Sir Richardson (talk) 16:37, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The bulk should appear in the main article. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:40, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have been bold and made large...cuts to Cameron's section. Sir Richardson (talk) 23:43, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Poetic justice, I hear opponents say!Cloptonson (talk) 06:34, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]


This still appears to be the case. I don't see how the Belfast flag protests are of any great relevance to David Cameron, let alone David Cameron as a Prime Minister (I may be wrong), and there are other events where the same applies. dpchalmers (talk) 14:35, 24 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Winston Churchill

Winston Churchill should also be listed under Elizabeth II, because during his second term as prime minister the monarch was changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.128.223.231 (talk) 20:28, 5 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No. Entries are never repeated for a change of monarch. BartBassist (talk) 23:13, 24 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I dislike how PMs already serving before a new monarch's ascension are accredited to the preceding monarch. Churchill was Elizabeth II's first PM but the way information is laid out currently hides that crucial fact. Perhaps someone can find a better presentation style. 137.222.64.100 (talk) 12:45, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It may be the case that Walpole's ministry was dissolved and reformed under the new monarch in 1727 (as was usual among the Hanoverians father and son detested one another and it had been assumed George II would want a new ministry, so it was a bit of a surprise when he kept Walpole on), but I don't really recall for certain. However, Churchill in 1952-3 was certainly the same ministry carrying on, the same as Melbourne in 1837, Salisbury in 1901, Asquith in 1910 or Baldwin in 1936. Nowadays ministries are part of "the Crown" in a metaphysical sense, rather than reporting personally to a Monarch and being expected to defer to his wishes as in Hanoverian times.Paulturtle (talk) 03:26, 12 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Proposals not introduced

I just removed 42 days detention from Gordon Brown. If we list things which were proposed and not accepted, we will be here all day. Hypnoticmonkey (talk) 07:52, 22 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For similar consideration I have deleted from information on David Lloyd George's tenure statement he "attempted to extend conscription to Ireland in First World War", an effort which was politically resisted.Cloptonson (talk) 16:07, 4 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I notice the latter appears to have been reinstated since the table was divided by reigns, but I am hesitant to delete it after reading the Wikipedia article on the Irish conscription crisis, where I notice it was passed into law but never implemented but did much damage among Irish opinion towards Britain. Cloptonson (talk) 20:34, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Re: William Pitts 1786 the decision to send convicts to Australia - not mentioned

Hello, yes, something minor, but not altogether insignificant: my understanding was that the decision to send convicts to Australia was made on the 18 August 1786, while William Pitt was in office. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Australian . This information is missing from his achievements. 58.161.57.229 (talk) 07:10, 16 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lord Melbourne was fired

Melbourne did not resign in 1834, the king dismissed him: the last time this happened. I have changed his entry in the list to reflect this. Richard75 (talk) 18:00, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Monarchs

An observation: I dislike how PMs already serving before a new monarch's ascension are accredited to the preceding monarch. Churchill was Elizabeth II's first PM but the way information is laid out currently hides that crucial fact. Perhaps someone can find a better presentation style. User:SamUK 17:03, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Why are they listed by monarchs anyway? Richard75 (talk) 17:53, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Unless anyone objects by the weekend, I am going to be bold and change the list format to divide the list of PMs by century instead of reign. Richard75 (talk) 19:04, 24 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Richard75 (talk) 23:50, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Can I just say, not as a member of the Wikipedia community, but as some who frequently uses this list: the change from monarch headings to century headings now effectively means that the list contains less information. Previously, the list told you under which monarch any given PM took power, plus since you have their dates anyway, you obviously new what century they belonged to. Now there is no information on the monarch and a sectional title that gives you no further information (as, like I said, you already have their dates). Could an extra column be added for the monarch they were serving under? 129.67.118.160 (talk) 16:22, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. The monarchs should be reinstated, the article as it currently stands gives the impression to one who is not familiar with our political system that each PM merely succeeded the previous one, and omits the formalities of our constitutional monarchy. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 16:47, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No one is likely to infer that. The PM's status is given in the first sentence of the lead paragraph (although we could add a sentence about how they are appointed if you like). I have nothing against adding another column, but the previous organisation of headings was misleading, as SamUK pointed out. Richard75 (talk) 17:21, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
He did make a brilliant point! I'll summon up the spirit of Bagehot and try and think of an aesthetic compromise. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 19:40, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Conflation of United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland with Kingdom of Great Britain

The article makes no distinction between heads of government of the Kingdom of Great Britain (sometimes called the United Kingdom of Great Britain) and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

The kingdoms of Ireland and Great Britain united in 1801. Prior to then they were separate kingdoms. Ireland didn't merge into Great Britain, no more than Scotland merged into England in 1707. The inclusions of First Lord of the Treasury of Great Britain prior to union has about as much place here as does a list of Lords Lieutenant of Ireland.

This list should begin in 1801 (when the United Kingdom began) and with the first Prime Minister of the United Kingdom (and when the term is first used). There are separate articles for List of Lords Commissioners of the Treasury (of Great Britain) and List of Lords Lieutenant of Ireland.

Background information on the head of government of Great Britain and Ireland before union is fine, but it should not be confused with the subject of this article. --RA (✍) 21:27, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Miscellaneous collections of random events

The lists of events in a PM's term should be of things he did: policies and achievements. Instead many of them, especially the recent ones, contain all sorts of events that have nothing at all to do with the PM in question, except that they happen to have occurred during that PM's term of office. We should review them all and trim them down, especially Cameron's. Richard75 (talk) 22:02, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I totally agree, but in many cases the events had a profound effect on that person's premiership. Cameron's list is quite long though, victim of recentism etc. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 21:24, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I too agree. For guidance, I suggest events listed be those personally involving the PM, or initiated by the PM or his government such as political campaigns (eg Major's Back to Basics) or key legislation and reforms, declared wars, major battles in which British forces participated, political scandals. I notice the Battles of Ulm and Austerlitz are mentioned against Pitt the Younger's second spell as Prime Minister; while they were significant in Europe, they did not involve British forces.Cloptonson (talk) 21:55, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I question the value of this table listing the death of Diana, Princess of Wales among events of Blair's PM tenure. This does not fall in the criteria I have suggested above. His part was little more than ceremonial, with some liaison with the royal family. Were not earlier PMs in the loop over earlier royal deaths?Cloptonson (talk) 21:29, 24 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
On similar grounds I question relevance of mentioning the London 2012 Summer Olympics under David Cameron's tenure. The selection of London had been voted by the IOC in 2005, in the time of a previous prime minister and different governing party. No one has seen fit to mention the previous UK hosted Summer Olympics of 1908 and 1948 against Asquith and Attlee.Cloptonson (talk) 19:50, 26 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Re the above points, Pitt the Younger is supposed to have mentioned Austerlitz on his deathbed ("Roll up that map of Europe, it will not be needed again for ten years" or whatever doubtless apocryphal words were put in his mouth). The death of Diana was a very strange event, accompanied by something not far from mass hysteria, in which Blair did play an important role for a few days while the Queen was at Balmoral and becoming a focus for public criticism which was starting to turn very ugly. Perhaps the Abdication in 1936 is the nearest parallel for a "Royal" event like that in recent decades.Paulturtle (talk) 03:40, 12 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Chatham, Grafton, and the 1768 General Election

The 1768 General Election, in the due box, has been put against the Duke of Grafton, while the corresponding box against his predecessor the Earl of Chatham (Pitt the Elder) is blank; this is incorrect - the election was in March-May 1768, Chatham did not leave PM office until 14 October that year, when Grafton immediately succeeded. I amend the position of the election detail accordingly.Cloptonson (talk) 19:47, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Electoral Mandate

Could someone please define "electoral mandate" as used here? I'm guessing that this indicates year(s) in which there was an election and the indicated PM was selected as the leader by the party that won. However, that's far from obvious and could use a definition -- perhaps in a note. Thanks, DavidMCEddy (talk) 16:39, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, I assume it must mean the mandate that the prime minister could reasonably have said to have been given to govern. Recent non-mandates include Douglas Home and Brown. Quite difficult to define though. Possible note: "General elections in which the Prime Minister won as incumbent or challenger"? Gareth E Kegg (talk) 16:45, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

London car bombings

I am deleting the linked reference to (2007) London car bombings against Gordon Brown because it is not the first such incident of its kind and not the worst in terms of loss of life caused. The first London car bombings in my living memory (by IRA) occurred in the 1970s, and the IRA caused some explosions in London during its 1939 S-Plan campaign.Cloptonson (talk) 16:22, 3 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have deleted the reference but for reason of their precedent I have added against Neville Chamberlain's tenure the so-called S-Plan bombings of 1939 by IRA (during the campaign a hotel where his son was staying in Ireland was attacked).Cloptonson (talk) 19:46, 3 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have added the 7/7 bombings as the first event listed in Brown's tenure because I appreciate the major loss of life caused. They were NOT car bombings, the bombs being detonated from public transport.Cloptonson (talk) 06:01, 28 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you whoever withdrew this last addition- I now realise Blair was still in office at the 7/7 bombings.Cloptonson (talk) 21:05, 11 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Why are the devisons by century

Just restored the page to monarch devision as this fits best for this list16:00, 16 January 2016 (UTC)31.77.87.119 (talk)

Consecutive terms

It is somewhat confusing, in the "Term of office" column, that some PMs (e.g. Thatcher, Blair) have consecutive terms combined into a single date range, while others (e.g. Cameron) have each term shown separately. It seems that the latter is currently done when there is a change in the nature of the government, but I think it would be more helpful to do it consistently throughout. 81.157.10.181 (talk) 17:09, 28 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

British governments don't, in principle, have "terms" in the way that governments in other countries do. They are sets of ministers governing on the Monarch's behalf until replaced by another set of ministers. So the Thatcher governments of 1979-83, 1983-7 and 1987-90 were technically the same government, whereas 1915, 1931, 1945 (for two months) and 2015 saw different ministries headed up by the same Prime Minister continuing in office (Churchill actually resigned and was reappointed in May 1945, which was a piece of constitutional pedantry on his part; normally the Prime Minister stays put, demands the resignations of all "his" ministers (unlike a normal reshuffle) and then forms a new administration).Paulturtle (talk) 03:49, 12 July 2016 (UTC) And in the eighteenth century, and again for a period in the mid-nineteenth century, the rise and fall of ministries did not coincide with general elections anyway.Paulturtle (talk) 16:43, 12 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is contrary to general usage. If you ask anyone how many terms of office Blair had, they would say three (two full terms and one part). Even the article Tony Blair says he was "the only Labour prime minister to serve two full consecutive terms". Similarly, the article Margaret Thatcher says "Thatcher was re-elected for a third term in 1987". I think if this article is to use the concept of "term" in an unfamiliar technical sense that makes the treatment appear inconsistent then it would be well to explain this somewhere. 86.185.70.240 (talk) 19:40, 21 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I take your point, but this article does include general elections, but also covers all the Prime Ministers since Walpole's time. There simply isn't any clear point at which the loose modern practice of talking of Prime Ministerial "terms", coinciding with the length of a Parliament, began. It would be wholly wrong, for example, to split the first Palmerston ministry of 1855-8 into separate "terms" around his triumphant re-election in 1857, or to split off from his 1859-65 ministry a brief final "term" between the 1865 election and his death a few months later. It is sometimes, but not always, used about Harold Macmillan's re-election in 1959. Sometimes there are clear breaks in constitutional practice but this isn't one of them.Paulturtle (talk) 01:50, 24 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Theresa May

Andrea Leadsom has withdrawn from the Tory leadership race. That means Theresa May's going to be prime minister. This should be mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.226.125.231 (talk) 11:46, 11 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

She shouldn't be on this list until she is appointed as Prime Minister. Not "presumptive", not "designate", not "elect", not anything. This is to confuse the British constitutional position with that of the United States or other Presidential systems that have a delay between the Presidential election and inauguration. She is the Leader of the Conservative Party and Secretary of State for the Home Department, nothing more, until Her Majesty the Queen decides otherwise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.98.89.60 (talk) 22:13, 11 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Picture of Theresa May

I updated the picture of Theresa May to a more recent one, closer to the time (now) that she is actually Prime Minister. This was reverted with the comment "The prev/ image is fine & newer image is already used in lede; note Heath pic was taken in 1965, a four full years before his becoming PM". The fact that the Heath picture was taken four years before his becoming PM is no reason whatsoever that the May picture also needs to be out of date. Ideally we should have pictures taken during the time that the person is PM. Where this is not available, the closer the better, given of course that the picture is good quality, as this one is. 86.185.70.240 (talk) 23:23, 21 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It was reverted again with the comment "superior image". This is clearly untrue. The new image is actually aesthetically superior, even disregarding the issues of when the photos were taken. 86.185.70.240 (talk) 23:28, 21 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

May has only been Prime Minister for a little over a week now. Give it time, and somebody is bound to take a decent new photo of her. And I must reiterate that the image you prefer is already included in the lede, for everyone to see right at the very top of the article. Besides, her appearance has not drastically changed since May 2010 anyway. By the end of the year, the 2010 image of May should be replaced with a newer image, one that may not yet have been taken as of this writing.--Neve–selbert 23:30, 21 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Melbourne's resignation in 1839

We should record the fact that Melbourne resigned on 7 May 1839, but I don't know the date when he got his job back. But there was no PM for a few days, and the list should reflect that. Richard75 (talk) 22:33, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Melbourne never formally resigned. Similar to how Cameron resigned the day following the Brexit vote, he just announced his intention to resign. With Melbourne, he simply decided not to go through with it and was persuaded to stay on, given the refusal of Peel to form a new ministry.--Nevé–selbert 23:58, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I see, thanks. Richard75 (talk) 13:02, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Official images

I think we need to find a consensus for the images used on this article. LookLook36 and Ebonelm have added the official images for Brown, Cameron, etc. even though this is not strictly necessary. At only 75 pixels, we should be choosing images that look their best at that quality. Compare:

Unofficial
Official
Unofficial
Official
Unofficial
Official as Home Secretary
Unofficial but as Prime Minister

Personally I believe that the unofficial images for Brown and Cameron are of a higher quality at this picture size than their official counterparts. I will however concede that the same thing cannot be said for May, and I look forward to someone uploading a portrait (either unofficial or official) of Theresa May as Prime Minister, in the near future.--Nevé–selbert 20:10, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Neve-selbert, could you explain your criteria for a judgement of "looking better"? The official pics look fine to me. The Brown and Cameron official pics have a less intrusive background than the alternatives (that beam through the top of Brown's head, and a heavy wood panelling for Cameron), and that Theresa May pic is from 2010, she looks younger than she now does. LookLook36 (talk) 08:56, 5 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Neve-selbert, personally I think that the official Brown portrait and the official Home Office portrait of May are much better quality than the others being used. To be honest I don't really like either of the Cameron pictures, the shadowing on the official one is quite noticeable in such a small size but then the 2013 picture is taken at an odd angle which makes it difficult to really see his face, so I'm happy to go with either. The May one has to be the official Home Office picture, the other image is taken at an odd angle with her mouth wide open. Ebonelm (talk) 12:09, 5 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@LookLook36: The problem I have with the official images is to do with the image noise. I agree that the 2010 image for May is pretty terrible, but as for Brown and Cameron I must diverge. It could just be my monitor, but the way those two images look at 75 pixels looks unbearably awful. @Ebonelm: I would note that there is a cropped version for Cameron's unofficial image here and here.--Nevé–selbert 21:40, 5 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I returned the unofficial Brown image, since it's easier to discern his face from the background at such a resolution. I kept the others in check, albeit with minor tweaks.--Nevé–selbert 22:20, 6 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks @Neve-selbert:, this looks fine for now. We should keep an eye out for a pic of Theresa May as PM - one is bound to turn up within a few months. LookLook36 (talk) 18:58, 7 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I made a request for someone to crop an image of Theresa May (probably temporary) as PM here.--Nevé–selbert 19:03, 7 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've notified the creator of the May image to improve the quality somewhat. I'm not satisfied either. Please be patient, Ebonelm.--Nevé–selbert 23:19, 8 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

edit conflict @Neve-selbert: we really can't use that new image of May its such low quality and taken at such a bad angle. While we do need an image of May as PM a balance has to be struck and a high quality official image from last year, even if May is now in a different role is by far preferable to a drastically cropped pciture. Ebonelm (talk) 23:20, 8 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, hopefully the creator of the image will darken the background and possibly upload a PNG version of the image.--Nevé–selbert 23:22, 8 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Removing the notes

Could someone help in removing the unsourced notes from the table? There is an FLR discussion going on at present and this is a key sticking point.--Nevé–selbert 19:39, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Working on it. This will take some time. Huon (talk) 22:26, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Done. The only issue that may need more work is Edward VIII; the table is supposed to have his portrait in a cell by itself while George VI begins within Baldwin's term; for some reason I can't quite figure out Edward VIII and Baldwin seem to end at the same time with George VI only beginning concurrently with Chamberlain. Huon (talk) 23:47, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Huon. Is there any way to get the table to span the entire width of the page? Thanks for the help.--Nevé–selbert 17:57, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure that's necessary; I think it would amount to adding whitespace within the table. Which column do you think isn't wide enough when the table doesn't take up the entire page width? Huon (talk) 18:22, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Huon: On my screen, the table looks squeezed. It would be better if the table could fit the entire screen like List of Presidents of the United States does.--Nevé–selbert 18:39, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Neve-selbert: Tell me what exactly you want done, and I can try and give it a shot (or maybe tell you how to do it). The Presidents list is a little wider than this one (given enough space), but it also won't take the whole screen's width if the window is wide enough. Huon (talk) 14:57, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Huon: I had the same problem on the list for Chancellor of the Exchequer with the Edward VIII cell. Apparently this is a thing that happens in HTML as described here in Wikipedia's guide to Advanced table formatting. The fix is somewhat of a fudge.
N.B. I don't think too much aesthetic inspiration should be taken from List of Presidents of the United States, my opinion is that the portraits are obnoxiously large and column layout confusing ToastButterToast (talk) 16:39, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

New layout

Hello all. I have just revised the layout of the table to accommodate the new look without the notes. Changes include a new #Notes section so that details such as when a prime minister stopped being an MP or holding a ministerial portfolio are nicely tucked away below. Moreover, I have replaced the number of references in the list to a single source so that there is one for each Prime Minister up to 1997. I have also incorporated the Regency era, thus indicating George III was no longer the nominal ruler of the country. I have made numerous other changes that are rather trivial and exhaustive to go through, but I will be more than happy to explain any of them or any other questions you may wish to ask.--Nevé–selbert 13:01, 2 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work, visually and in terms of formatting I think this is a significant improvement on what was there already. My only minor gripe is the shading on the Premiership and Electoral Mandate boxes which I would remove. I would also suggest incorporating Template:Post-nominals/GBR into the list rather than post nominal letters direct to the holder. ToastButterToast (talk) 21:08, 2 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I decided on shading the Premiership and Electoral Mandate boxes rather late when I was drafting this, but I figured that if the col-spanned cells were shaded differently, it may have a positive effect on the reader in terms of colour psychology or something similar. Shading the Electoral Mandate boxes with a darker shade of grey (! scope=row) de-emphasises the cell, so that readers don't feel drawn to it as they might otherwise. There is separate list for British general elections, after all. The same sort of goes for the Premiership boxes, although I chose to use party colours as I felt using grey twice in a single column would be rather depressing. I also liked the aesthetical appeal. And with respect to the post-noms, I really doubt they need linking to. Consider mobile users, those who don't use a mouse, who may accidentally tap a post-nominal expecting to land on the prime minister's article. Thanks for the feedback though, much appreciated.--Nevé–selbert 23:01, 2 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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