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Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
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This archive covers May 16-June 2, 2005.
"Sources have indicated that Pope Benedict is likely to appoint San Francisco metropolitan archbbishop William Joseph Levada as the next Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. If confirmed, Archbishop Levada would be the highest ranking American in the church hierarchy."
I have a few concerns about this paragraph: (1) I would prefer that we don't refer to sources as "sources" in the articles. Do an in-line citation if you know it. For example, "Time magazine said...." or something like that. (2) Wouldn't the highest ranking American in the church hierarchy remain Edmund Cardinal Szoka, Governor of Vatican City? The new office holder would certainly be one of the most influential, but technically speaking not the highest ranking in the hierarchy. And we have to remember that personality made the office of Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith influential during the tenure of Cardinal Ratzinger. He made it influential; it wasn't for several generations before he took office and there remains a small possibility that the successor won't be as influential at all. (3) Levada was not the only person named. Cardinal George of Chicago was cited as a candidate. So was the Austrian cardinal and several others internationally. Mention them or don't mention Levada at all. (4) Is it really relevant to devote such precious article space (kb) about who the Pope will choose to fill a bureacratic position? --Gerald Farinas 20:47, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
The Doctrine of the Faith is the second highest Vatican position, the man in charge of the Inquistion.
Eh? The Cardinal Secretary of State and the Cardinal Camerlengo are both clearly higher positions in the curia than the Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. One might also argue that the Dean of the College of Cardinals is the second highest ranking figure in the Church, or that all Cardinal-Bishops outrank all Cardinal-Priests, no matter what specific curial office they hold. john k 23:36, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Well, I guess it's my POV as a Catholic. The CDF has more influence in my life than Cardinal Szoka will ever have. Aloysius Patacsil 23:53, May 17, 2005 (UTC)
Regarding the discussion about higher ranks, I think, that such competition is futile. The pope is the highest, but all others are restricted to one aspect. The Prefect of the CDF is highest in the field of doctrine and discipline (in the curia - he still is not on his own superior to a Bishop), the Governor of Vatican City and the Secretary of State in matters of the Vatican City State, the one internally, the other externally. The Cardinal Dean in regard to the College of Cardinals, and so on ... To cut a long story short: there is no number 2 in the Church. Str1977 20:59, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
Hey. Changed the Latin to Benedictus P.P. XVI a little while ago. It was reverted, which I'm fine with, but why? I had asked about whether P.P. should be included on Pope John Paul II and someone added it in, so I figured it held true here as well. Only because I assumed we were translating the boldface Pope Benedict XVI into Latin, so I thought the "Pope" should be carried over. Thoughts? --User:Jenmoa 01:39, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Ok, Patsw, it's there, but does that mean that PP means "Pastor Pastorum"? I never heard of these "PoP" or "BoB" before, they are not part of the offical titulatur (and "BoB" is a bit dodgy, IMHO). I only know "servus servorum Dei". Str1977 18:05, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
P.P. used in the official signature of the Pope is pastor pastorum. Besides the Catholic Encyclopedia, you can seach Google for pastor pastorum Pope for more references. A printed source:
is the one I quoted when I mentioned this in my blog. I highly recommend this book for anyone with an interest in the papacy. I translated Episcopus episcoporum for the benefit of readers here. It is not used in the official signature of the Pope as P.P. is presently used. patsw 23:52, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
Dear Patsw, found some more on the issue (http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0005Hr) - two conflicting opinions:
"The "P.P." stands for "Pope and Pontiff" this means that he and he alone is the sucessor of St. Peter."
"Now, what does "PP." actually mean? According to the old Catholic Encyclopedia (under "Ecclesiastical Abbreviations") and according to Fr. John Hardon's Catholic dictionary, "PP." stands simply for "papa," meaning "pope." A clue that it does not stand for two words (such as pope and pontiff) is that there is only one period (at the end), rather than two periods (one after each "P")."
Str1977 10:53, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Note: the discussion of the vote is now at Talk:Pope_Benedict_XVI/Styles_Vote. The vote, totaled 44, came out withm 25 support for the His Holiness style being prefixed, and with 19 against. This does not meet the "consensus" rules that has been tossed around on here and at the MoS page. Though we do have some room to figure out what we can do as a whole, at least we can say that we try to figure something out. I thank everyone for participating in this poll/debate. Thank you. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 15:50, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
The link to yahoo news for note no. 1 is no longer active. Algebraist 15:15, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
I am not sure I understand why the link on the His Holiness honorific is being reverted - it seems natural - that someone would want an understanding of what this title means in this context. I was reverted when I restored it a few days ago, and for me this wasn't part of the debate on using them or not but just the wikipedia thing to do. Can someone please explain? Trödel|talk 21:31, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
When Lulu and others added a footnote to His Holiness I opposed it for its wrong content, but this link seems all right to me. No need to delete it. Str1977 22:11, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
I agree. FearÉIREANN(talk) 22:27, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
There are duplicate endnotes, leading to an inconsistency between the numbers in the text and those in the list at the bottom. This happens because some endnotes are referenced multiple times, e.g. #13 and #15. These should be split into ref_CNSa and ref_CNSb, with the entry for CNSb just reading "ibid." (There may be more such duplicate endnote refs.)
I couldn't correct this myself because somehow section editing is screwed up: the section edit links go to the wrong sections. Lupo 14:21, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Anyone else concerned at this afternoon's deletion of the habemus papam announcement text, etc? Did we lose useful info there? –Hajor 03:57, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
Sure, rescuing it from history's no problem. I just wanted some help in making my mind up about whether we were better off with it or without it. –Hajor 04:05, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
Would there be any objection against consistently italicizing and linking prefixed styles like His Holiness? That seems like a reasonable way to defuse the debate, and to make it clear that we are mentioning the style, not using it.--Eloquence* 15:47, May 21, 2005 (UTC)
The following was inserted to the Response to sex abuse scandal by 68.251.118.126, replacing paragraph 3:
Some of the content may have merit, but needs to be integrated into the section, rather then replace referenced facts about statements made.--ghost 21:54, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
The anonymous sources used in this paragraph cannot be verified and consequently are violations of the offical verifiability policy. It has been deleted. If the paragraph is rewritten to include a verifiable source who heard the Cardinal Ratziger say "One can't put on trial such a close friend of the Pope's as Marcial Maciel.", it can be added back. I believe this is not a real story but some sort of spin war between factions in the Vatican, one faction seeking a public investigation and report on the Fr. Maciel and another faction seeking to suppress any public discussion. patsw 22:46, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
Contrary to a claim made, popes are described as reigning, given that they are elective monarchs. One does not have to be crowned (btw the word is not coronated. Who keeps using this nutty word?) to be described as reigning. No-one crowned Queen Beatrix in the Netherlands, King Albert in Belgium, King Harald in Norway, etc yet they are described as reigning and their periods in office as reigns. It is also exceptionally clumsy to write about someone being inaugurated in an inauguration. The generic term that covers the various methods of formal papal initiation of their papacy, whether they are crowned or inaugurated, is enthroned, which makes sense as officially popes are said to sit on the papal throne. Using enthroned also gets over the alward sounding 'inaugurated in an inauguration. Also Papal Inauguration Mass is the formal name of the ceremony and requires capitalisation. In addition the Pope is not just head of a religion. He is also a head of state, so it is important to mention that fact by pointing out that he is also the sovereign of Vatican City because it is as sovereign of Vatican City, and not as pope, that states have diplomats accredited to him.
Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia and it is important to get the formal terminology correct in these areas. FearÉIREANN(talk) 00:00, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
Actually is the Holy See and not the Vatican City who has diplomatic relations.. Cjrs 79 01:30, May 28, 2005 (UTC)
I found this in Wikipedia Holy See :
"The Holy See administers the Vatican City, including all diplomatic functions; foreign embassies are accredited to the Holy See rather than to the Vatican City, and the Holy See establishes diplomatic agreements ("Concordats") with other sovereign states, on behalf both of itself and of the Vatican City (as appropriate). Generally speaking, the Holy See is a party on its own behalf to treaties of Ecclesiastical interest, and a party on the Vatican City's behalf to treaties of technical significance (e.g., regarding co-operation with Italy)." Cjrs 79 01:34, May 28, 2005 (UTC)
"juridical equivalent of a state. That's my point. The papal court actually functioned both in the religious and in the temporal power sense. Much though I hate to say it, Wikipedia is not 100% accurate in a lot of its content. States do not have diplomatic relations with the Catholic Church as the Catholic Church. The has diplomatic relations with the Catholic Church in its state capacity. FearÉIREANN(talk) 20:49, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
There are currently two legal personalities under international law connected to the Catholic church. 1. The state of the Vatican City and 2. the Holy See (to some degree similar as the Knights Hospitaller). The former was founded in 1929, the latter has been existing for centuries. Even as the papal state was dissolved and the church lost all territory, the legal personality of the Holy See didn't cease to exist. Since the Holy See doesn't has any geographic extension (unlike the Vatican City) it cannot be regarded to be a state.
This page has for days been under siege from vandals, one in particular, for quite a while now. Unfortunately the principal vandal is using a university IP number that cannot be blocked except for an hour or two at any one time. Any longer blocking provokes an outcry from the other students who besiege admins with emails demanding that the block be cancelled immediately.
The main vandal seems intent on revisiting and revandalising the article every chance he or she gets, and this seems likely to continue certainly for days, probably for weeks, until the prat gets bored and goes away. Even constant reversions are not sucessful as text and images keep being lost in the process.
The only shortime solution, I would suggest, would be to temporarily protect the page. If over the next 24-48 hours the vandal every time they come back find that they cannot vandalise the page as it is locked, they might give up completely. It is an extreme option, but the only one that may stop the farce of vandalism, reversion, vandalism, reversion, edits to find bits lost in the process and reinsert them, more vandalism, etc. It would be unfair on everyone else who are doing honest edits, but if we don't do something the danger is that we will still have this page being vandalised repeatedly every day for weeks to come with most of our time wasted on just reverting the vandalism of this asshole.
Other than locking the page, the only other option is to place a longer term block on the vandal's IP but that is something Wikipedia as a whole would have to agree on, as it would also potentially block hundreds of contributors from that university and lead to vast numbers of complaints to Jimbo and to all the admins. (The last time such a block was tried, over 100 admins and others were emailed by legitimate users demanding that the block be removed immediately.)
Any thoughts, people, on whether we should temporarily lock the page? Or has anyone else got another proposal? Or are people prepared to spend their time indefinitely reverting, reverting, reverting, as well as checking to make sure that some of the article's contexts have not been lost in the process? FearÉIREANN(talk) 21:32, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
Please add new archivals to Talk:Pope Benedict XVI/Archive11. Thank you. Bratschetalk random 21:16, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)