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This archive covers June 23-July 17, 2005.
Not wishing to be the bearer of bad tidings but the catalyst for good I refer you to all my posts and edits under all my usernames . I see that a State may propose a questioning into a contentious issue between states before the General Assembly of the United Nations. I feel sure that the pontiff would relish the chance as the Head of State now to ask for such an advisory opinion available to him as such concerning adoption of magisterial law , particularly that of romans 3,8 . And that He ask for this christian injunction to be incorporated as soon as practicable into the drafting of International Law such that further loophole injustices such as those seen at Nuremberg concerning this very issue of law , be closed . I repeat the earlier call for pontifical resolution of the cases of Pope Pius XI and Pope Pius XII and Monsignor Ludwig Kaas and here I add Franz von Papen , who availed of this loophole at the Nuremberg Trials .Famekeeper 13:17, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Ok, looks like I opened a door I should not opened. What do people think about what I have done with the transcluding? Zscout370 (Sound Off) 23:04, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
When is the official photographic portrait of Benedict XVI going to be placed in the article? See John Paul I and II articles (wearing red with the stole of Peter; photographic pose; neutral/subdued background). To be honest it is not clear what the official portrait is as of yet but I don't think it is the one currently be used by Wiki, showing Benedict seated in the Sistine Chapel (looking slightly bemused). The home page of the Vatican has a couple possible contenders. Any thoughts? [June 26, 2005]
Can anyone explain the rationale behind wikifying "reigning". Str1977 29 June 2005 21:01 (UTC)
Because some people, particular those who do not live in political cultures or in religions whose heads reign, don't understand what the concept of reign is. It is normal to link words that may not be universally understood, to an article that explains it. FearÉIREANN(talk) 2 July 2005 21:07 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. Str1977 3 July 2005 11:59 (UTC)
But isnt't "pontificate" a more accurate term? With "papacy", I think about the whole institution. Str1977 3 July 2005 21:58 (UTC)
Actually papacy is an office. reign is the period in time a monarch holds office. One can talk of the Pope's reign, but not the Pope's papacy. Pontificate is more akin to reign but linking to reign is best because they'll see the same term used in other articles on monarchs. And while one can talk about a pope reigning, one cannot talk about a Pope pontificating (well, one can, but it means something totally different in that contact!! When someone is described as pontificating one can be taken to mean by some people that "they are showing off and acting as if they know everything". It is a POV term so not a term Wikipedia can use. FearÉIREANN(talk) 3 July 2005 22:54 (UTC)
As one has to sign in for the "... lover of cats..." article, is it an appropriate link?
The BBC tried questioning Primate Cormac Murphy O'Connor before his journey to demonstrate at Edinburgh recently , about the Catholic church's attitude to prevention of Aids through the greater use of Condoms His unsatisfactory , nigh evasive , answers provoke a further questioning .
Humanae Vitae states that no member of the church can possibly deny that the church is competent in her magisterium to interpret natural moral law. The encyclical further states that God has wisely ordered laws of nature . However ,as we all know , there is a new biological "law" of infectivity which states that human bodily intercourse can of itself be a death sentence . God's law previous to this new law of cause and effect might have or did appear to be wisely ordained , but the situation now is completely ovetaken by what presumably (in inversion of God ) would be classed as a 'devilish' law but which medically is recognised as being an infective human immuno-deficiency syndrome .
We know that in fact this infectivity is not limited to humans . We know that the result of the infectivity is mortal destruction , irrespective of morality or belief , or, indeed, species . We know that the church's response thus far is to solely countenance abstention from intercourse between humans as solution , whereas we know that the simplest of protective plastic film is enough to protect life ,already in existence ,from this mortal danger .
Here we have a plain contradiction in the natural law trumpeted under the aegis of the Magisterium by Humanae Vitae and ,doubtless, throughout this faith's teaching . The natural law has changed ,however a faith may wish to deny this - the mortality is present and it's virulence exceeds any inverse of God's will (such as the fallen Angel's name earlier mentioned describes-but which we should not use except in this particular theological analysis ).
The belief in Hum. V. is that each man through the exercise of his conjugality , is not the master of the sources of life but rather the minister of the design established by the Creator . Indeed so, and irrefutably , the design is subject now to AIDS (whether through God's will or not is in comparison a theological as opposed to real discourse) . The church -which has always insisted on the inverse of God -the unrepeatable name , is well-placed to therefore recognise that a duality exists now within natural law .
However it appears that the members of the church Hierarchy are in natural and hence , from the above, moral confusion . As natural law has changed and the duality has entered within the very chain of ministry that is conjugality , we see that there is a complete up-ending of the socio-moral order of society . Death is overtaking wide sections of humanity , simply because of their natural adherence to the previous natural order . Marriage is no bar to infectivity , intention is no bar . The Primate's only advice is towards abstinence by all from the most instinctual natural functions of the body , which is an equal up-ending of the natural law , and one which we see financially bankrupting the church following the human failure of its own ecclesiastic's even with their magnificent support system of the Mother Church, providing them with nourishment and care to the grave.
It is not here the intention to simply point to hypocrisy , because this will not further understanding or provide advance. Nevertheless I have to relate this central subject of world concern back to a similar moral problem , that implicated by the teachings of romans 3,8 .This is necessary because the central argument of humanae vitae rests upon the same magisterial or divine law tenets. These state that whilst a lesser evil may be tolerated to prevent a greater evil , that yet , evil shall never be chosen in order to promote a good . HV states though it is sometimes lawful to tolerate a lesser moral evil in order to avoid a greater evil or in order to promote a greater good ,"it is never lawful even for the gravest reasons , to do evil that good may come of it ,-in other words to intend directly something which of its very nature contradicts the moral order...even though the intention is to protect ... an individual .. or society in general .
Laudable injunctions, which I note at length throughout the relevant pages , were broken by Pope Pius XII, Hitler's Pope and his predecessor Pope Pius XI . That is a subject of dispute here on wikipedia and elsewhere . It appears to many historians that indeed the Catholic Church as led at the time , chose actively (in 1932 and 1933 ) to consider Nazism a lesser evil than Communism and was therefore culpable in upending the moral order of society .
The church , in so far as it can operate to defend itself from the accusations and the historical realities (through apologists ) should now recognise that just as it chose then to avail of the lesser evil policy , now it should see the damage considered resultant upon the use of protective condoms to marital structure and promiscuity and actual conception to be clearly the lesser evil given that God (let us use the word) has now inserted the dualism of death into this conjugal ministry of life .
(Ye who would cavil at my use of these pages to raise these issues, as those who cavil at the additions to the historical pages, should deeply consider the morality of your complaints before carping at these words...)Famekeeper 7 July 2005 08:58 (UTC)
FK, those that cavil are those wikipedians that don't consider themselves above the (wiki) law. But I digress. Apart from the fact that your evaluation of the Pius XII situation is wrong, now you are also inconsistent: Only a few lines above this post you called on BXVI to go to the UN make what you call "the Law" a.k.a. as the principle "don't do evil to achieve good", to make this principle international binding law. I considered this simplistic, unrealistic and unpractical. But now, in this post, you are calling on the same BXVI to do the complete opposite, namely to declare an evil, though a lesser evil, good. Yes, I agree using condoms are a lesser evil than spreading AIDS and IMHO the late and the current Pope agree. But it's still evil, according to Catholic morality - and I hope you can muster enough tolerance to at least let us be and follow our consciences.
Very confusing is your remark that "natural law has changed" - no, natural law has not changed, it cannot change, otherwise it wouldn't be natural law. And natural law doesn't change because of the appearance or spreading of a disease. There were other STD here before anyone could spell AIDS.
However, for those you seriously consider the Pope responsible for the spreading of this pandemia, please read the following, non-Catholic articles:
http://www.spiked-online.com/Printable/0000000CA993.htm
http://canadiancoalition.com/forum/messages/7406.shtml
Str1977 20:36, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
This "vandal" version should definitely be stored in some kind of humor archive: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pope_Benedict_XVI&oldid=18563853 Torfgeist 12:50, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Is Benedict the last political figure/person in the news who has a link with WWII?
This comment can be incorporated in the main article if appropriate.
Was he in the german army at all ?
How can the editor wish away a federal case , if the vatican lawyers themselves cannot ? A federal court has denied immunity in a case to do with this partly beatified , part-saint . Is it true he has been put in the deep freeze for 50 years by Jewish outrage ?
Pius XII has been smeared and slandered (before you ask I don't think you a conscious slanderer, just the messenger) ever since Hochhuth's crackpot play. That was 1963, 43 years ago. But I don't want to argue about such trifles. I don't understand what you mean by "add it".
Str1977 17:57, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
User:207 etc. (anonymous) has added a very pertinent qualification that brings this old subject (and widespread editing conflict) into the subject of fallibility . It would suggest the impossibility of sainthood being conferred on any of these popes before their lawyers have recanted their mis-found beatification scrutiny (in the reign of JPII the chief lawyer having been the previous Alois Ratzinger) . What is canonically wrong, as proved by my old friend and the canon law I quoted , cannot remain as infallible /doctrinally sound and in complete agreement with catholic doctrine , is in fact not free from heresy but is unabashed contumacy against the magisterium . JPII was ill-advised . However as in the case of Mowrer and Pius XI in 1928 the simple solution is that BXVI say that of course he was wrong about Pius XII , and that his infallibility now is intact with this qualification . However , that would be to leave JPII hanging out to dry . The church is skating on very thin ice here and BXVI might begin to feel nervous about his position given what the anonymous editor finished with "heresy bars one from any position in the church , such as bishop pope and especially saint ." Thanks to the anonymous editor .Famekeeper 19:17, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
1) look up infallibility and learn what it means (I'll give you a clue: faith/doctrine and morals if ex cathedra, beatifications) 2) look up at this very page what the pope's former name was. 3) unfortunately, the reasoning provided by 207... (is he your "old friend"?) is to my knowledge wrong. AFAIK all writings of a candidate are checked for heresy in the beatification process, i.e. the checking of JPII's writing starts now and must be positively concluded before his being declared "venerable". Also this refers to his writings (books, encyclicas etc) not to his infallible decisions. He has made no ex cathedra definition but beatifications are also protected from error. These are es sese correct. But there is no such protected beatification by JPII (or any other Pope) of Pius XII. So even if your claims were true, if Pius were the villain you make him out to be, even if his being declared venerable were wrong, infallibility is not concerned in the least.
I have no clue what is going on here. I've been asked to have a look, and this thread is mindbogglingly confusing. From what I see from the article history, everything is ok, and editors seem to be getting along well enough. The best sense I can make out of this thread is that someone, perhaps FK?, feels that Pope Benedict XVI may have Ustashe ties, and thus will have trouble being canonized as a saint after his passing. If that is true, I would strongly recommend alerting local or Vatican catholic authorities to this matter. If I am mistaken, could someone please try to explain (carefully ;) ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 22:02, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
After more investigation, it would appear that it is Pius XII who has the alleged ustashe war crime culpability, and theoretical complication to his canonisation. Is this correct? ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 22:06, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Well, Sam, not actual Ustashe ties. There were ties between the Ustashe and the Croatian clergy and this clergy than had ties with the Pope of course. This is the justification for the lawsuit.
However, I see no disagreement about the actual article here. The reference (beatification and law suit) is in the article, maybe it still needs clarifying if it misled you at first. Str1977 23:04, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
No . There are several disagreements in progress here that amount to revert war on at least three pages, Centre Party Germany reverted 3 mins ago , Hitler's Pope and here on this discussion page . i'll tell you what this is really about now .
We end exactly as in this section, whereby Ratzinger okayed the 'venerable' for Pius XII legally , now that has to be rescinded(like sometime before the end of the papacy according to St Malachi , shortly) because the Federal case is going to blow the head off the denial engine in Rome OR , the Str1977 german (presumably) quotatation I have recognised as contumacy in Ludwig Kaas is the danger : it is an internal danger because it relates to all my analysis of the canonical law broken by Kaas ,Pius XI and Pius XII. That was the overturning of heaven by accedance to the destruction of the moral order in backing Hitler . These arguments are all cited history and law , with thrown into the pot the report by the Chicago Daily News hard-bitten foreign correspondent. He remembered and accused and that accusation relates to these words of Kaas' about soul .The point is Kaas was okayed by Pacelli (Pius XII later from c1938) indeed Pacelli was either leading the thoughts of his boss, Pius XI or defining them , but both were aware of what Nazism was (there were endless reports to them from Germany )and Kaas was aware that this , his recommendation , in the suicide of democracy votewas against the soul which is the holy spirit etc. The suit by Dorich concerns as STr1977 says but furthermore it connects to the Vatican Bank . It claims that the war loot torn from the victims bodies not only entered the Vatican Bank but that it was then used to finance the rat-line escape of an unknown large number of murderous nazis and ustashe and Franciscans who evaded capture and trial( one priest was hanged) . This further allegation is a real can of worms and goes deeper into conspiracies which are like as to the vatican as a mouse is to an elephant . User: Famekeeper 23:33, 14 July 2005
"Ratzinger okayed the 'venerable' for Pius XII legally, now that has to be rescinded"
"sometime before the end of the papacy according to St Malachi"
"because the Federal case is going to blow the head off the denial engine in rome"
"analysis of the canonical law broken by Kaas, Pius XI and Pius XII."
"He remembered and accused and that relates to these words of Kaas' about soul."
"The point is Kaas was okayed by Pacelli"
"(Pius XII later from c1938)"
"indeed Pacelli was either leading the thoughts of his boss, Pius XI or defining them"
"but both were aware of what Nazism was (there were endless reports to them from Germany )"
"Kaas was aware that this his recommendation in the suicide of democracy votewas against the soul"
Kaas said too much and did too much , for a christian. He broke the magisterium , as Pius XI required and Pacelli abetted .
"which is the holy spirit etc."
"The suit by Dorich concerns as Str1977 says but furthermore ...."
We are here because BXVI is and ,was before in charge , of this case (via CDF acceptance towards the beatification of Pacelli) and BXVI is faced with the dilemma of history , not you or me . I hope I have provided him with the true path , and warn that if this particular scandal (32-33) is not cleaned by the church ,as I related it can be in the canons , the addition to the pages will be worse still . I said revert censorship and I believe it to be precisely censorship .
Because, against censorship , is a quote from Pius XI about Hitler in 1933 , during the negotiations for the vatican's Reichconcordat . I called for an rfc for this discussion page on account of Str1977 deletions . WP needs to see these outrages reported and this is why I take up this space .
Pope Pius I Comment from 1933 , Reason and Good Will :
Franz von Papen is on record relating the words of this Pope , whom I placed in this article . On page 315 of John Toland's 1976 Adolf Hitler (Doubleday) appears the following relation of Papen's April visit to the vatican ( the same one I cited before -this is repetition)
Indeed .Through Pacelli and through the Hierarchy , Pope Pius XI knew much more , and undoubtedly was aware of the exterminating anti-semitic nature of Hitlerism , as Hitler was braggardly in claiming that (Toland writes) "He was only going to do more effectively what the Church of Rome had been attempting for so many centuries ". Earlier in April Hitler had defended his legislation , the Law Against Overcrowding of German Schools , in a talk with Bishop Berning and Monsignor Steinmann saying "the Jews were nothing but pernicious enemies of the State and Church " .
Whilst this was aimed at driving Jews out of academic life and the public professions, there were many Hitlerian explicit references to Jews perishing and being eradicated out of Europe.
I remind you all that good action must not only conform to moral law , but be done for the sake of moral law . That good will is good not by what it performs but simply by virtue of the volition , and that the function of reason is to produce a will good in itself , for reason recognises the establishment of a good will as its highest practical destination . I urge you to consider your positions regarding the necessity for these article to relate not to whitewash , but to the history . Necessarily , the failure of good action and good will must be reported and the legalities enumerated . I am angered by the continuous absence of good will and the suffocation of reason . Famekeeper 00:00, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
Please add new archivals to Talk:Pope Benedict XVI/Archive13. Thank you. Str1977 19:12, 17 July 2005 (UTC)