For the time being, I will focus on re-structuring the copy of the old version, not on shortening. Andries 15:48, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I counted 6.074 words of readable prose in this version 16:39, 13 May 2007. See Wikipedia:article length. Andries 15:48, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Andries 13:21, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Note: These reviews don't apply to this article.Momento 22:22, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Andries 12:22, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with your approach,as you are dismissing the questions and skirting the issue raised. If you want to be helpful, start from the verison that was deemed better by the independent reviewer, which I have copied here as a way to state my disagreement. Be well. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 12:48, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Melton's quote is ambiguous - "Maharaj Ji, as do many of the other Sant Mat leaders, claims to be a Perfect Master, an embodiment of God on earth, a fitting object of worship and veneration" - could mean that "Maharaj Ji claims to be a Perfect Master, and also claims that a Perfect Master is an embodiment of God on earth, a fitting object of worship and veneration".Momento 11:45, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
One (perhaps the only one) advantage of the Momento rewrite is that it resolved to some degree the imbalanced presentation of Rawat’s critics, in that it avoided the sentence and link that remains in the orginal article:
In a FAQ article about opposition to Maharaji and his message, Elan Vital claims that there are a handful of former students that actively engage in opposing Rawat, his students and organizations, and lists a series of complaints against them. [121]
^ "Opposition to Maharaji and his message – Detractors and the negative message they convey"
Last November, I proposed a resolution of the imbalance caused by the inclusion of this item, that involved the addition of the following sentence:
The Elan Vital organisation has published an affidavit which claims to identify members of an active 'critics' group of Ex premies. Of those named one - Nick (sic) Wright has written a response to the affidavit [4] (Prem Rawat Talk Forum.Wright [[5]] rejects any notion that an organised 'Hate Group' of former followers of Rawat exists but commends two sources which he considers broadly representative of his views of Prem Rawat [6] (Prem Rawat Maharaji Info) and [7] (Prem Rawat Critique)
This text was rejected on a number of grounds, and referal to Mediation and Arbitration achieved no resolution, although both mediator and arbitration panel suggested reference back to Wikimedia where the issue remains unaddressed. As the arbitrators also included the opinion that the matter was an issue of ‘content’ it seems that the conflict could now be addressed simply by taking the Momento route and deleting all external links to Elan Vital from the existing article. I have dealt with the deficiencies in the linked Elan Vital material and the problem of imbalance in the way that former followers are dealt with within the Rawat article at: [[8]]
Nik Wright2 13:54, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I have no intention of getting involved in the wider issues of this article - however it should be put on record that Ron Geaves' 2004 paper From Divine Light Mission to Elan Vital and Beyond contains numerous factual errors which I have presented here -[9]
Nik Wright2 14:14, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Here is what the cited source states (The Spiritual Tourist Brown, Mick Bloomsbury publishing ISBN 1-58234-034-X Chapter Her Master's Voice' pp. 197-198)
edit by Momento in which he changes citation of Mick Brown about Millenium '73 I think that Momento's "correction" distorts the source. I reverted. Andries 17:02, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Browen's source is Rawat's letter and Rawat wrote "This festival has been organized by Divine Light Mission each year since 1967, in the memory of the late Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaji on His birthday. This year the most Holy and significant event in human history will take place in America.” Clearly he is talking about "Hans Jayanti" not "Millennium". Brown is distorting the source and so are you.Momento 21:10, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with the way Momento introduces Reinhart Hummel to the reader. [10] He was in the first place a religious scholar who did researched Eastern movement and who wrote a book for the uni that gave him tenure there. He may have been somewhat biased because of his Christian background but he was not a Christian countercult writer in the cited book and only in the second place he was in the cited book someone who may have been somewhat biased because of his Christian background. That is not so important I will revert. Andries 17:18, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
It should be shorter. Andries 17:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
If Brown, Hummel, Derks etc are going to have large parts of their material included, in fairness we should do the same with Collier. As you know PatW and SylvieCyn were adamant about including more Collier and I was criticised for omiting some. On the other hand the new article avoids all these issues this proposal creates.Momento 21:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
It is extraordinary that you think Hoffman's famous claim shouldn't be in this article. If the comments of a Dutch theology student from a small town in an article in a university magazine deserves to have eight lines in this article, how can you possible justify removing a famous person like Hoffman's equally famous sentence? Reinserted.Momento 21:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Rawat certainly did not speak at the first Glastonbury festival (who made that up ?) which was held in 1970 see [11]
Nik Wright2 07:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
According to Andries, Survival of the Coolest by William Pryor.Momento 10:49, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
According to the Wiki article "Glastonbury Festival" the 1970 event in the area was named the Pilton Festival, though some recall it as the Worthy Farm Festival. There were still earlier events in the area through the 1920s. The first "Glastonbury" named event was the Glastonbury Fayre, of 1971. This was where Prem Rawat spoke. Events since that time have all retrospectively become known as Glastonbury Festivals. Rumiton 12:55, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Andries, I applaud what you are doing here, but I can see problems. We are not writing a biography, we don't have space. So we need to find a way to give a fair impression of what happened without giving ALL the pros and cons, which will take many thousands of words. The issue of the Krishna Costume (garb, apparel, raiment, clothing) comes to mind. The quote that Momento gave tells the story as I recall it pretty well, but it is too long. We are all looking for an article which is aceptable to each other and ourselves so we are all looking basically for the same article. We need to get good at shortening. End of lecture. Rumiton 13:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Folloers of Maharaji were in the 1970 described as followers, not as students. Andries 04:58, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
If we're talking about Rawat's teachings, and we are, then a teacher has students not followers.Momento 05:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Trained as a Roman Catholic priest [1] ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:13, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
If Van der Lans lived in a Catholic monastery for 15 years, VDL was a Catholic cleric. Unless he renounced Catholicism he remained a Catholic cleric..Momento 07:32, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm disappointed that editors are still trying to characterize the religions of certain scholars as if their religions give a particular bias about their writing. That's pure speculation without proof or evidence of a bias. That information has nothing to do with the subject of this article and has been a huge waste of time in the past. If they are published scholars of NRM that's enough information, no more characterization of them is required, nor is it a form of good writing. A link to their own Wiki article if one exists, is more than adequate. That's a good way to cut down on word count, and another way to show good faith that we trust readers to draw their own conclusions.
This article is about Prem Rawat only, not the sources. Instead of getting bogged down about whether someone was a Catholic priest, a monk, a Lutheran, a Prostestant, etc., let's focus upon writing the article using the best published sources available that have been written about Prem Rawat. Of course, the only exception to this must be Ron Geaves, (the only published scholar that does have a conflict of interest which I've explained extensively before). Why? Because Geaves is the only religious scholar who both writes about the subject of this biography, Prem Rawat, and is a decades-long follower/premie of Maharaji. That's a distintive difference from the other published scholars. Additionally, Geaves committed a large academic no-no when he did not disclose his personal association to Rawat to his academic peers when he published papers about Prem Rawat. There's nothing to discuss about the other scholars, otherwise you're getting into a slippery slope of religious bigotry if you try to characterize a scholar's writing about Rawat based on their personal religious affiliation, not to mention to do so is original thought. Sylviecyn 14:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
It is not necessary for an editor to have to prove that a source is COI, rather the burden lays with the quoted author/source to ensure that approriate statements are given with regard to any potential COI in all relevant works. In Geaves' case there is no contention that he is not a follower of Rawat and has been for decades, yet there is no published statement attached to any of Geaves' writings about Rawat that declares Geaves' position. This is not a question of Geaves' general religious beliefs - if he were Hindu or Sikh that may not warrant any comment, even though a Hindu or Sikh may share a degree of commonality with Rawat's 'philosophy'. What is at issue however is Geaves' capacity for disinterest when dealing with his personal teacher. It is true that certain groupings of sociologists of Religion have advanced the notion that they are not obliged to reveal COIs, however this is at variance with the general direction of profesional ethics - the following is from:[12]
On Being A Scientist: Responsible Conduct in Research
Conflicts of Interest
Sometimes values conflict. For example, a particular circumstance might compromise-or appear to compromise-professional judgments. Maybe a researcher has a financial interest in a particular company, which might create a bias in scientific decisions affecting the future of that company (as might be the case if a researcher with stock in a company were paid to determine the usefulness of a new device produced by the company). Or a scientist might receive a manuscript or proposal to review that discusses work similar to but a step ahead of that being done by the reviewer. These are difficult situations that require trade-offs and hard choices, and the scientific community is still debating what is and is not proper when many of these situations arise.
Virtually all institutions that conduct research now have policies and procedures for managing conflicts of interest. In addition, many editors of scientific journals have established explicit policies regarding conflicts of interest. These policies and procedures are designed to protect the integrity of the scientific process, the missions of the institutions, the investment of stakeholders in institutions (including the investments of parents and students in universities), and public confidence in the integrity of research.
Disclosure of conflicts of interest subjects these concerns to the same social mechanisms that are so effective elsewhere in society. In some cases it may only be necessary for a researcher to inform a journal editor of a potential conflict of interest, leaving it for the editor to decide what action is necessary. In other cases careful monitoring of research activities can allow important research with a potential conflict of interest to go forward while protecting the integrity of the institution and of science. In any of these cases the intent is to involve outside monitors or otherwise create checks to reduce the possibility that bias will enter into science.
Nik Wright2 10:36, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
The whole point of this proposal was to respond to the GA review. As Vassyana noted - "The old version is a complete mess, especially in comparison. The new version is not perfect. However, I find the old version to be filled with bias and poorly written... Why not work on fixing the well-written and organized, if still flawed, revised version instead of trying to put back a poorly-written and organized version?" Andries disagreed and decided to rewrite the old flawed version. The result is we have this version that is even longer and has not addressed many of the GA concerns which were addressed in the first proposal. After a brief spurt of activity, this proposal has slowed to a crawl. I propose we replace the existing article with the first proposal until this proposal addresses some of the pressing issues brought up in the GA review.Momento 21:29, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Your POV editing the remove the words (In bold) from Rawat's quote is unacceptable. It completely changes the meaning by removing the words that clearly show Rawat was talking about his father's birthday not just Millennium - "This festival has been organized by Divine Light Mission each year since 1967, in the memory of the late Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaji on His birthday. This year the most Holy and significant event in human history will take place in America.” Clearly he is talking about "Hans Jayanti" not "Millennium". Momento 08:55, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
it is relevant to the subject's notability, it is not contentious, it is not unduly self-serving, it does not involve claims about third parties, or about events not directly related to the subject; there is no reasonable doubt as to who wrote it. Rawat's statement on Millennium is acceptable. Quite frankly, I think quoting Rawat on Millennium is undue weight. It will certainly have to go if you intend to "merciless edit" this "bloated" article. In the meantime, if you insist on putting it in, at least be accurate.Momento 09:13, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, you are, Momento, and I can easily see your point, but it is making the article unreadably long and tedious. That is why the only solution, as I see it, is brilliant paraphrasing of sources, not slavish repetition. Why does nobody else see this? Ah God, it's hard to soar with the eagles when you... :-) Rumiton 14:52, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
If there can be no agreement on "correct" paraphrasing of translated work, the only alternative is to disqualify ALL non-English sources. Rumiton 10:35, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
With your permission Andries, I will remove 20 KB of material from this proposal in 24 hours.Momento 23:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
If you don't, I will. This is the most irritating piece of verbosity I have seen in a long time. Rumiton 13:53, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Please keep the citations very close to the contents that it supports, not at the end of paragraph but at the end of the sentence or even for a certain word. Not doing so is confusing and hinders editing by others. Andries 05:40, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Thye problem now is that Andries' version goes straight from the 1974 split to the '80's without anything about '75 to 1980.Momento 21:50, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I've left the "Leaving INdia" and "Teachings" sections untouched but they need the most work. Comments so far Andries.Momento 23:15, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Here is a word count from the draft that I started. Lead section is excluded. The word count shows that in contrast to what Momento states, Derks, Melton, Kranenborg, Haan, Hummel, Van der Lans do not have disproportionate amount of space. And in the case of Melton and Derks & Van Der Lans, user:Momento himself gave them more space. Hunt has the most word i.e. 404, then follows Geaves with 308 and then Downton with 305. The version for the word count is here [13] User:Andries/Prem_Rawat/word_count (details of the word count)
Andries 11:03, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Updated version posted at [Rawat Bioproposal nr2]
Problems addressed: 1. Lack of Rhetorical and Semantic neutrality. 2. Lack of coherence between text and quoted references 3. Lack of balance in spread and number of quoted sources. 4. Lack of coherence between references and Bibliography
Having read through all of the existing reference material I have come to the view that rather than a criticism section in the biography much of the scholarly material would be far more appropriate to the [| Techniques of Knowledge article]. It seems to me that past editing of the PR articles has led to a confusion of a personal Biography with the history of a belief system, the practice of meditation, and the functional history of organisations. For any progress to be made I think these various strands have to be unwound if articles useful to readers unfamiliar with the territory are to be created.
A good example of the kind of problems that have arisen is the way in which the term Westernisation has been used liberally in previous versions. Without being given a clear context the term Westernisation can be ambiguous, it is certainly true that some of scholarly references use the term but this seems variably to refer to organisational, presentational and social contexts. In a Biography the default reference is to the individual; where the references are from authors who were not writing a biography, great caution has to be taken as to what the relevance is of a specific term to the life story being presented. Does it refer to personal behaviour, or to personal belief, or to activities recommended to others, or to requirements made of individuals, businesses and institutions made from a position of power or influence ?
I understand that it may be painful for those who have had long involvement with the Rawat articles to now get involved in a process of deconstruction but without a careful process of looking at what words actually mean there will never be any stability.
--Nik Wright2 10:26, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
You will save yourself and us a great deal of time if your learn what is acceptable to Wiki. Your selection from Hansadesh is not.Momento 09:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC)