Anyone else hear that?[edit]

The rhythm of the drums themselves, as performed by various characters through the episode (a homeless man, Margaret Jones, The Master) is the beat of the series' theme song. That's certainly not an accident. Worth a mention? Mael-Num (talk) 16:31, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What is your reliable source to make absolutely sure that it's certainly not an accident? ╟─TreasuryTag (talk ╬ contribs)─╢ 16:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Unnecessary, as it's common knowledge. Common enough, in fact, that another astute editor already placed it in the article. I simply overlooked it. Mael-Num (talk) 16:42, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, it is necessary; as it is, a reliable source was found. Had there not been one, I would have had to remove the information. ╟─TreasuryTag (talk ╬ contribs)─╢ 18:50, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and clearly the cited "reliable source" used the same method that I, and likely the original author of that portion of the article, did to determine that fact: we listened and recalled the theme song. It's...troubling that you would require someone to jump through hoops to find a citation for something as obvious as that. Mael-Num (talk) 20:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There's a difference between "original research" and "clearly perceivable". This is a case of the latter. TreasuryTag, I wonder if you would question a description of Tom Baker's Doctor as "curly-haired" in absence of a "reliable source?" --Shubopshadangalang (talk) 20:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If you would have told me just yesterday that a reference to the Most Holy of Doctors would cause a partisan Doctor Who fan to see the light and concede an argument, I would have laughed. Actually, it's still pretty funny today. Mael-Num (talk) 00:41, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Russell T. Davis has actually denied that there was any intention to have the sound of drums echo the theme tune - it *is* an accident. It was inspired by the sound of his alarm clock, according to an interview in DWM. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.67.148.152 (talk) 18:59, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is intriguing to note that the drum signature, " · · · − "ⓘ , Morse code V was "V for victory" call-sign for BBC Europe during WWII, from 1941. I wonder if, in that DWM interview ("inspired by the sound of his alarm clock"), Russell T. Davis was making a little joke about a wake-up call? Although that could well be stretching a point, since Davies was not born until '63. In any case, when asked, he probably wouldn't have mentioned the War. One is one and one is one (talk) 00:28, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

President-elect: summary[edit]

It has been suggested that because the character, Arthur Winters, within this story refers to himself as "President-elect" in the context of U.S. government, a term which carries with it an explicit reference to a time period of November-January in US election years, by definition, (though a few other characters also refer to him alternatively as "the President," Mr. President," and "President Winters") that information regarding the temporal setting of the story should be included in the article. Arguments concern the validity of this assertion, and whether or not it should be included in the article. Related arguments pertain to a general interpretation of real-world references within fiction, and to application of Wikipedia policy, and specifically how terms such as "Original Research" are defined in this context.

This section is a summary of the arguments related to this matter. Comments, replies or any other considerations which are not arguments proper go in the sub-section "Comments", and can and will be deleted by anyone from any other sub-section.

Position #1: Timeframe evident from definition.

The term "President-elect" carries with it a clear definition involving a specific timeframe, which should be included in the article.

Yes. Arguments in support of this position:

No. Arguments in opposition of this position:

Position #2: Winters doesn't know who he is

The character is incorrect when referring to himself as "President-elect" and therefore this is not valid.

Yes. Arguments in support of this position:

  • That's not true. In what context would it mean that? These resources define it exactly as stated, as falling between two clearly-defined, time-specific events: election (1st Tues in Nov) & inauguration/induction (Jan 20): [1], [2], [3], [4]. —Shübop "Shadang" Âlang 05:15, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A US president would never refer to himself as "President Elect" after being sworn in. That term may have other meaning elsewhere, but in the US it would mean "Someone else is still president and I have no political power yet." He could have said "Elected president" to convey the intended meaning. If he was actually president elect, he would never be in that position, the actual president would be. Algr (talk) 18:49, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There's a tendency in many articles concerned with works of fiction to assume that the fictional world makes sense. In reality, a work of fiction may contain clues designed to impart information to the reader without spelling everything out, but it may equally well contain a series of errors, inconsistencies, sloppy plotting or mistakes caused by a lack of research by the writer. Serial television is prone to all these things, even serials that are wonderfully entertaining. We can't do any more than guess whether the use of the phrase "President Elect" tells us something about the date in which the story is set or was simply a mistake. Plenty of things in even the best fiction don't quite make sense when you analyse them closely, and although trying to fit the pieces together can be a lot of fun on fan blogs and message boards, it's probably a bad idea to try to do it here. Hobson (talk) 19:09, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No. Arguments in opposition of this position:

Position #3: Nothing is the same as in the real-world unless sourced (application of WP policy)

The title of "President-elect" might have a different meaning within the Doctor Who universe than it does in the real world, so this information should not be included unless a veriable source from within the program itself can be presented that defines the term. (Wikipedia policy?)

Yes. Arguments in support of this position:

No. Arguments in opposition of this position:

Position #4: Info not relevant

It is not important to place the story in a timeline context, so it's irrelevant.

Yes. Arguments in support of this position:

No. Arguments in opposition of this position:

Wikipedia policies & philosophies at play

Examples:
  • Milk: If a character states "i drank a glass of milk," are we to assume that "drank" and "milk" are defined the same way as we define them in the real world, or should we wonder if perhaps it is toxic to humans, and fear for the character's life? Should we question whether "drank" might mean something more like "stepped on"? Should we require a source that fully defines these terms?
  • Mirrors: If a character speaks of "looking into a mirror" should we assume that a mirror is the same object, and has the same reflective qualities in the fictional universe as it does in the real world? Or should we avoid any references to reflections, or of whether the character saw themselves in it, because we don't know?Should we require a source that fully defines a mirror as different to those of our own world?
  • New Year's Day: If fictional events were established in a story as taking place in December 1974, and in the course of events a party took place with people screaming "Happy New Year" at the stroke of midnight, with one character saying "Hey, now it's officially "New Year's Day," followed by another set of events. Should we question whether the definition of "New Year's Day" is different somehow, and wonder if perhaps, in the fictional universe, it falls on February 1, or in the month of Troon, instead of being January 1? Should we require a source that fully defines the date of the holiday in this fictional world?
Examples:
  • Milk: Following the above example, is it "original research" to state in an article that the character's milk consumption involved his/her mouth? Or is this simply logic?
  • Mirrors: Following the above example, is it "original research" to mention a "reflection"? Or is this simply logic?
  • New Year's Day: Following the above example, would it be "original research" to state that the second set of events took place in January 1975? Or is it simply logic?
--Shubopshadangalang (talk)
  • It is a common fictional device to present story details in such a manner without explicitly stating them. For example, in the movie "Charlie Wilson's War," early on, it is established that the character is divorced through his statement "and I'm paying alimony." Unless the character is lying or mistaken, it can be drawn through course of logic that he has been previously married, and is paying alimony to his ex-wife through a divorce settlement. Why? Because that's what "alimony" means by definition. Likewise, it is not "original research" to simply extract the meaning of a word to include details that are tied to that definition. In contrast, it would be "original research" to extract from this detail alone that his ex-wife married him only for his money - that is not evident in this information. I'm not sure this is the best example, but I think the difference here is crystal clear, and hopefully I've explained my perspective enough so others see what I'm getting at. --Shubopshadangalang (talk) 05:25, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • If you're not interested in this instance then can you take your experiment elsewhere, please? This is really wearing. ╟─TreasuryTag (talk ╬ contribs)─╢ 17:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please suggest a more appropriate venue, if one exists. At the moment, the core of the arguments are still relevant to this article. Regardless, you are free to not read this discussion page at any time you wish :) —Shübop "Shadang" Âlang 17:15, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think what you're saying falls under Position #2. But feel free to add a new position if you feel that is vastly different than #2. —Shübop "Shadang" Âlang 17:15, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect the writer of this episode was a Brit who didn't know what "President-elect" means. 99.226.239.5 (talk) 05:42, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pretty much. There are other points throughout RTD's episodes where he either gets the terms muddled or seems to assume a rather American approach to politics. Everything from the use of "Great Britain" instead of "the United Kingdom" for the state, to Cardiff seemingly having an executive Mayor who has only had a few months at most to go into local politics and get that to that post (in most British cities the Mayor is a presiding officer who doubles as the ceremonial "first citizen" of a city/borough and usually such a Mayor is a long serving councillor; Cardiff is not one of the few that has instead introduced a directly elected council leader with the title "Mayor") to even having news presenters using "THE CITY OF LONDON" as though it means the whole capital when the term has a very specific limited meaning.
Or if you want a simple fictional explanation, the President is a satire on George W. Bush and has muddled his words when he's meant to say "elected President". At big moments nervous people get the wording muddled all the time - everything from wedding vows to Presidential oathes of office. Timrollpickering (talk) 19:05, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Also the issue with Saxon being "elected" Prime Minster. You can't get elected Prime Minister. You need to get at least 350 of your supporters elected, who then chose you to be Prime Minister. "Vote Saxon" election posters would only appear in one single constituency where Saxon himself was standing for election for one of the 650 seats in Parliament.

My thoughts[edit]

Cruciform vs Crucible[edit]

This article mentions that the 'Cruciform' is a ship that is later seen at the end of series 4. However during those series 4 episodes (and in the related articles) the Ship was referred to as the 'Crucible.' Did I miss some conection between these 2 C's, or is this information wrong? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.249.47.11 (talk) 18:53, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This information is probably wrong. Coincidentally, I made the same mistake when I first saw those episodes till I came here to read this article. Darn, those things sound alike. DonQuixote (talk) 19:54, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The point at which "Dalek Emperor took control of the Cruciform" was apparently a turning point in the battle, so much so that it cause the Master to lose all hope and flee. It would be speculation to include this in the article, but to me, this clearly tells us that "The Cruciform" is something valuable or powerful either on Gallifrey or of Time Lord origin, and the Daleks' control of it either caused a severe balance of power in the war, or signaled an end point to the war in which "the Cruciform" was the last front. The Crucible as seen in the series 4 finale is clearly a Dalek ship, and doesn't seem to be cross-shaped, but actually resembles a "crucible" with its energy core, which is powerful enough to destroy the Tardis once its inside. —Shübop "Shadang" Âlang 02:30, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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