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I think that's a relevant statement for this article. The beginning talks about the disagreements over what a Urim and Thummim is and that tells that Mormons believe a Urim and Thummim could be anything. It should stay. Cookiecaper 21:26, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I understand the statement from a modern Christian standpoint - it means the object is set apart for that use - I also think the statement should remain in the article, as the Seer stone, the Book of Abraham Papryrus and other objects could be considered Urim and Thummim. -Visorstuff 21:40, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- - -
i dont know where and how to add it so this is my little info about אורים ותומים
it is said it was on the stones of the choan gadol was holding whice can be referd to the hoshen , whice have many diffrent color stones , it can be slippt over the years from כתום to תום and there for it was lost it's understanding, אורים ותומים was the color of the stones whice can be translate to orange and white , i belive most of the stones lost but those 2 was kept for some time and got it's diffrent perpose.
i learned it 20yrs ago from my h'idar. somone with more time need to check it out , cuz it will explain it's givan name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.70.66.13 (talk) 10:13, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
No Bible translation I know states that the Urim and Thummim were used in selecting the replacement for Judas. Every Bible I know says a lot, and it appears that lots were used all the time without being the Urim and the Thummim. The last reference in the Old Testament appears to be waiting for the Urim and Thummim to reappear (Ezra and Nehemiah) which, to my knowledge, they never did. I have never known anyone to contend that the apostles possessed the Urim and Thummim or to explain how they could have gotten them.
Document or withdraw.
Jdavidb 19:35, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Thanks, guys. Not only is that idea historically doubtful, I don't even know any religious group that believes that. I think maybe the original author just didn't realize the difference between Urim and Thummim versus casting lots. I notice the older versions of the article identified them as a lot and that was changed to "divination medium." Perhaps there are some religious groups (Mormons?) who believe the apostles possessed the Urim and Thummim, but I never heard of them. Jdavidb 14:38, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Interesting. I'm still not clear on whose tradition it is or where I can find this. A reference would be very enlightening. Jdavidb 15:20, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)
As the translation is plural, it is doubtful that there was one device, and in most cases should be referred to as Urim and Thummim rather than the Urim and Thummim.
I take issue with this line of reasoning, which is someone's interpretation stated as objective fact. That makes as much sense to me as saying since the Torah refers to the stone tablets the Ten Commandments were written on as the Tablets of the Testimony that there were in fact many copies of these tablets. It just means that there were two tablets, even though those two were certainly unique. In the same way the Lights and Perfections could have been a small set of gemstones; it would have been a plural number of gemstones, but that wouldn't have meant that there were more than one set of Lights and Perfections in the world.
I propose this sentence be NPOV-ed as follows: "Because the words urim and thummim are given in the plural, some scholars consider it possible that there could have been more than one such device, believing that in most cases the reference should be to Urim and Thummim rather than the Urim and Thummim."
Also note that even though some people believe this, I take issue with the editing of the article to change "the" to "a." This does not follow the most common English usage, nor does it follow the Biblical usage, which contains the direct article. The Bible which mentioned the Urim and the Thummim in the first place called it "the" Urim and the Thummim, and since that is the most common usage it should be retained with mention made of the other theory and its evidence.
On a much more positive note, I'd like to say the paragraph explaining how some view the Urim and Thummim as simply the casting of lots was excellent and was the perfect way to reintroduce the connection to Matthias without distorting the known facts. Good job!
I'm still curious if someone can actually document for me who exactly believes Matthias was selected with Urim and Thummim. Is that a Mormon doctrine?
Jdavidb 15:18, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)
More thoughts
Thinking a little bit more. Now that I think about it, there was no definite article used in the exile when they were discussing the uncertain family of priests. The governor decreed they would wait "until a priest stood up with Urim and Thummim," which could even be translated as "stood up with a Urim and Thummim." It's not interpreted that way to my knowledge, though. This could simply reflect their belief that the original Urim and Thummim would be replaced by a new one, rather than expressing that there were plenty of Urims and Thummims around just waiting for a priest to pick up a set and stand up. :) In fact my understanding is that there was never again a time when a priest used Urim and Thummim, so apparently whatever they were there was not another one in the opinion of the priests. Jdavidb 15:27, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I also want to take issue with the phrase "in most cases do not connotate an object." Again, scholars are divided over this, but it is stated here as objective truth. To my knowledge, most scholars believe the Urim and Thummim were an object. This wording states that "in most cases," i.e., most times it is mentioned in the Bible, Urim and Thummim do not refer to an object, implying that some times they do? I've got all the references above; which ones connotate an object and which do not? As near as I can tell, it always appears to refer to an object, and we would have no basis for decisively concluding that it does not. If some scholars come to that conclusion, then mention they hold that conclusion, but don't state it as fact. Jdavidb 19:13, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)
This list of references is from Urim, now redirected here. Charles Matthews 10:52, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Content from the Thummim page, now redirected here. Charles Matthews 11:06, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
This article incorporates text from a publication now in the public domain: Easton, Matthew George (1897). Easton's Bible Dictionary (New and revised ed.). T. Nelson and Sons. ((cite encyclopedia))
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(help)
Thummim - perfection (LXX., "truth;" Vulg., "veritas"), Ex. 28:30; Deut.
33:8; Judg. 1:1; 20:18; 1 Sam. 14:3,18; 23:9; 2 Sam. 21:1. What
the "Urim and Thummim" were cannot be determined with any
certainty. All we certainly know is that they were a certain
divinely-given means by which God imparted, through the high
priest, direction and counsel to Israel when these were needed.
The method by which this was done can be only a matter of mere conjecture. They were apparently material objects, quite distinct from the breastplate, but something added to it after all the stones had been set in it, something in addition to the breastplate and its jewels. They may have been, as some suppose, two small images, like the teraphim (comp. Judg. 17:5; 18:14, 17, 20; Hos. 3:4), which were kept in the bag of the breastplate, by which, in some unknown way, the high priest could give forth his divinely imparted decision when consulted. They were probably lost at the destruction of the temple by Nebuchadnezzar. They were never seen after the return from captivity.
Started looking at this again, and the article still states that the U&T "should be referred to as Urim and Thummim rather than 'the' Urim and Thummim." It is not the job of Wikipedia to make this distinction. This must be contextualized according to the principles of Wikipedia:NPOV. In other words, we have to report that this is someone's particular conclusion, not that it is universally agreed upon fact (because it is not). Jdavidb 14:27, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
What does the Arabic language have to do with Mormonism? Kirbytime 05:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
These are all from the Mormon translation of the Bible. It shouldn't be called "The Bible" when it's really referring to a small sect's version of the Bible. I'm going to change it to say Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible. Or maybe there should be a section on the dispute between the Joseph Smith Translation and contemporary translations. I'm going to change the heading of the subsection for now. Kirbytime 05:58, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
"TRANSLATED OUT OF THE ORIGINAL GREEK: AND WITH THE FORMER TRANSLATIONS DILIGENTLY COMPARED AND REVISED, BY HIS MAJESTY’S SPECIAL COMMAND AUTHORIZED KING JAMES VERSION WITH EXPLANATORY NOTES AND CROSS REFERENCES TO THE STANDARD WORKS OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS"
Thus, those verses are changed to have a pro-Mormon slant. Which is why they were certainly not appropriate for a Wikpidia article.--Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 08:47, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Mormons claim to have used the Urim & Thummim in the translation of multiple of their texts, including the Book of Mormon. Such is stated in the article. Heath007 keeps adding a line saying basically "but of course this has been shown to be nothing like what the Hebrews actually used when they said they used the Urim & thummim." Heath, you can't just write off an entire demographic that in the US is larger than Judaism. Defend yourself here and quit reverting in your silly little line. --Mrcolj 22:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I simply clarified the introduction paragraph with information that is explained in detail further in the article. I am no more “anti-Mormon” than Mrcolj is anti-Semite. I also read that Mrcolj has had problems on Wikipedia before. It seems that he likes to write vanity articles about himself with the resolution being article deletion by an administrator. Now Mrcolj is purposefully misrepresenting my edit by attempting incorrectly quote me with a sarcastic spin. Fortunately the page’s history is faithful to preserve the truth. Visorstuff, who appears to be LDS as well, has decided to back Mrcolj by making a vague reference to a third party which supports Mrcolj’s stance. - Heath007 08:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Why is this now ad hominem? I wrote an article about myself and it was deleted. I think that was over a year ago... I really just wanted the backlinks, and I didn't know the rules. So what? That has nothing to do with whether you should have repeatedly reverted a line which served no other purpose than to disregard a major religion. I was trying to be politely sarcastic rather than pointed. I'm a teacher--I'm a bit more rhetorical than perhaps I need be. Anyway, my point was solely that if 12M people believe it, you can't put in a line that says those people are just plain wrong. My father-in-law was a Biblical archaeologist who taught at Hebrew University in Jerusalem; my wife was raised in Jerusalem and worked in anthropology, and I majored in Ancient History (actually Latin teaching); and we all believe Joseph Smith used the Urim and Thummim in a similar if not exact way that the Old Testament prophets did. Again, my sole point is there's no need to go out of your way to disregard an entire ethnicity. By the way, I've never met visorstuff, I've just seen him around LDS topics, where he is often seen as an wiki-authority. --Mrcolj 02:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I heard a lecture many years ago, in which the speaker referenced David Baron. The following points were made:
The names of the Tribes, engraved on the twelve stones, used 18 of the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet.
The "Completions" were the other four letters, engraved on a 13th stone, set in a special pocket or setting. The opinion of some that the four rows of stones were aligned on the sides of a square, rather than four parallel rows, would admit a center setting for this stone.
The "Lights" were holes, probably thirteen in number, in a special lamp set inside the Breastplate, which was made of a folded rectangle and so was hollow. [I presume the settings of the stones were open at the back to admit light from behind.]
To get the opinion of God, the lamp was lighted, a question asked, and the flickering light would illuminate a stone or letter, indicating a tribe, or spelling out something.
The God of Israel could use many ways to communicate with people, as seen in many places throughout scripture. This was a means He inspired Moses to institute that He promised to honor, at least whenever it was used by the Kohen.
The failure of Saul to receive an answer from God, even by Urim, was misinterpreted by him; no answer is still an answer. God wanted Saul to ask a different question.
Well, that seems more logical to me than any other explanations I have encountered. Polymath07 14:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Some feel that "Urim and Thummim" is another name for the casting of lots (or stones, etc.), rather than a device that is used as a medium. Because of this context, some traditions[citation needed] hold that the choosing of Matthias to replace Judas Iscariot in the book of Acts by the casting of lot was done by Urim and Thummim, rather than by "the" Urim and Thummim. In either case, Urim and Thummim is not mentioned specifically in Biblical text in regard to this calling.
The above paragraph is cited to be a Christian view. Christians believe that the 12 apostles did not hold the Aaronic Priesthood; therefore, they would not have been able to use the Urim and Thummim. I know that LDS believe that the apostles did hold the priesthood, and I am trying to determine if the casting of lots for Matthias is an LDS view or if it was just some unfounded statement. - Heath007 06:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Lots have a few different meanings and in some cases misinterpreted. I'll try to find the references I am referring to later this week. BTHOMAS
The article states that Thummim should be pronounced Tummim, which is correct. However the reason the article gives is that there is no θ in Hebrew, which is incorrect. There is no θ in Modern Hebrew, however Tav without a Dagesh would have been pronounced as θ in Biblical Hebrew. This is the change I'm making:
"It should be understood that there does not exist a /θ/ sound in Hebrew, so "Thummim" is really pronounced /tumim/"
to
"It should be understood that "Thummim" is really pronounced /tumim/" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vgp0012 (talk • contribs) 19:11, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
The biblical reference that the Samaritans couldn't pronounce it correctly (from Judges).
The Urim and Thummim weren't imbued with special powers and they didn't speak to you. God told Samuel to annoint Saul king over Israel, but the lot was still drawn in the presence of the people, for all to see.
No voices or special sights are noted in 1Samuel 10, as at Mount Sinai in Exodus 19.
Two stones are mounted on the ephod, each with the names of 6 tribes. (Exodus 28:9-14, 30)
David drew the lot 1Samuel 23:9-12. "He will" and "they will" can be inferred as simple affirmatives.
Saul wasn't answered by Urim since he was a Benjamite, and his "yes" would be on the other stone, the Thummim, when the names are put on in order of birth. Maybe Saul should have rephrased his question. [2] --No938 (talk) 03:02, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
What if the Urim and Thummim are not named after stones used, but because of the job they were used in? like a quartz stone being called something else because of its working of a function in a ritual instead of being named a quartz stone.--Krashlia (talk) 01:23, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
In the article the Urim and the Thummim are wrongly likened to the onyx stones in Exodus 28:9: "1 Samuel 28:6 states that Elohim refused to answer Saul by dreams, by Urim, or by prophets. Saul was a Benjamite; his 'yes' was Thummim. A priest is a Levite; his 'yes' is Urim. Six tribes were on one stone, and six tribes were on the other. Exo 28:9 And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel: Exo 28:10 Six of their names on one stone, and the other six names of the rest on the other stone, according to their birth. Exo 28:11 With the work of an engraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones with the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be set in settings of gold" This seems to be a logical explanation. However this is not right, and misses the greater context of the passage. The two onyx stones are different stones which the priest carries "on the shoulder pieces of the ephod" - Exodus 28:12 (NIV). The Urim and the Thummim, however, are carried in the priest's breastpiece, which is not the same garment as the ephod - which looks slighly like an apron (but is of course much more decorated). The Urim and the Thummim are mentioned much later in Exodus 28, and first appear in Exodus 28:30. I edited this paragraph out of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Glowinthedarkstar (talk • contribs) 11:20, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Is there any reason why the gems could not have had practical function.
I have wondered in passing if perhaps they were quartz crystals with sputtered gold contacts used for frequency selection purposes. Part of a low tech radio system.
Until recently (1980's) almost all channelised radios used quartz crystals for channel selection. Crystals can also be used in bandpass and SAW filters and could be used to discriminate a weak signal from noise. Perhaps each crystal was used to select a specific tribe that needed to be communicated with?
Here is a random site that has a gold plated quartz timing crystal image.
It would be an interesting angle to suppose that these were practical devices and not just mandalas.
EDIT: Here is an instructive video on timing crystal production from natural quartz.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEtYLFBsrUI
Idyllic press (talk) 08:34, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
Urim and Thummim = Er and Tamar
Just granpa (talk) 16:35, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
@Epachamo: In your last revert you seemed to have missed that I replaced the Interpreter source (that you rightly pointed out was not a RS) with a Dale Morgan reference, which quotes the 1831 Benton recollection of the 1830 trial. The text you are reverting back to places the description involving two stones set in (silver) bow(s) as appearing in later accounts. In fact, this is not the case - this element of the description appears as early as 1830/1831 (and again in 1834) and predates the usage of the term "Urim and Thummim", which is why my edit places it before the mention of that usage, and predates the 1838 JS history. Hence, tying the "set in a bow(s)" description is incorrect. Yes, there are a variety of descriptions of the U&T as seen by the table in Urim and Thummim (Latter Day Saints), and I am actually basing my edit on the sources in that table. The "set in a silver bow(s)" element appears in all but the very first 1829 description, which is why it imo can be included here. I fail to see why tying that part of the description to later accounts is necessary and/or superior. --FyzixFighter (talk) 22:51, 20 July 2023 (UTC)