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so i was wondering if i am insaine or are there others who live by these virtues as i do, in everyday life. who originated them? was it pulled from an ancient belief or were they picked at random? what is its origin and who do i need to write to find out. avatar_loki@yahoo.com make subject virtues
My definitions for the Virtues of Spirituality and Humility are as follows:
Spirituality = Truth + Love + Courage
Humility = The absence of Truth, Love, and Courage is Pride. Pride is the surest measure of goals never attained. Pride goeth before, Shame cometh after. This Shame leads to awareness of Humility, the root from which all Virtues grow. Humility is to strip oneself of all conceits.
It follows that for Mandrake's Virtues, the definitions for Happiness and Indulgence are:
Happiness = Wine + Women + Song
Indulgence = The absence of Wine, Women and Song is Denial. Denial is the surest measure of appetites never satisfied. Denial goeth before, Need cometh after. This Need leads to awareness of Indulgence, the root from which all Virtues grow. Indulgence is to strip oneself of all restraints.
Teukros 14:29, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Isn't Hythloth the dungeon of Pride?
Hythloth is connected to all three altar rooms, which implies that it is the dungeon opposite to the virtue combining Truth, Love, and Courage. That would make it Spirituality. Also, the stone used in Hythloth's place in the altar rooms, the white stone, is the stone of Spirituality (as verifiable on the seventh level of the Abyss), and the color is the combination of the colors of Truth, Love, and Courage. So everything seems to point to Hythloth being the dungeon of Spirituality, which is why I made the change (which I notice I did before I created an account, sorry). Kitanin 03:37, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Ah, I think I found the source of the confusion—going through the list of nitpicks with Ultima IX (on the Ultima IX page), it turns out that they got the dungeons confused in the final game. Kitanin 01:26, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Isn't the three principles in Ultima a reference to Freemasonry? I mean, the so called "three principles" are the same as the "three great principles" of Freemasonry: Brotherly love, relief and truth. What do you guys think? --Pinnecco 18:24, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
The Order/Chaos forces could go with something to split them up, or signify which is which (colour coding?) As it is all six are in the one table and it could be a little more readily evident which three belong to which side. Also, you could make a really nice diagram which depicted the combinations. Darien Shields 23:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Also, is it worth mentioning what the warped principles of the modern day Serpent Islers are? i.e. Beauty instead of Love in Fawn, False Honour instead of Courage in Monitor and... umm... whatever was important in Moonshade instead of Truth. Darien Shields 03:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Should this page perhaps contain a short blurb about Lord British's newer philosophy of "Ethical Hedonism?" I remember the philosophy being only very vaguely mentioned in both Ultima IX, and in a book within Ultima Online (I don't think it appeared in any of the other games.) The problem in my mind is that may not be enough material available on the philosophy itself to really warrant including it - it certainly was never developed anywhere nearly as much as the other philosophical systems in the games.
I was thinking of something along the lines of: "In Ultima IX and Ultima Online, Richard Garriott included short treatises on a philisophical system he termed "Ethical Hedonism" - the pursuit of personal happiness tempered by an awareness of the rights of others to pursue their own happiness as well. However, this system was never developed in any more detail beyond these short mentions in these two games."
Any input? Dexeron 17:49, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to go and remove something that people have clearly put a lot of effort into, but I would like to suggest that the material on the anti-virtues be removed from this article. Though it is interesting, it is a fan-produced extrapolation, not anything that has to do with the canon material. As such, the entire text having to do with that subject does not belong in the article.
However, if completely removing that material seems too drastic, then I'd suggest the "description" text of that section should be severely reduced to make that section shorter--at least, it should be shorter than the material on the virtues with which they contrast....
Barring THAT solution, perhaps the text on anti-virtues would be better put into another article rather than placed under the subject of virtues (since it doesn't really have anything to do with the actual subject.) Geeman 06:57, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
This page reads very much like a fansite, and is largely based on original research or synthesized from what are known as "primary sources". I'm not sure I see any room for improvement here, but I am going to wait it out a few days before advancing this to the AFD page in case I'm mistaken. Coccyx Bloccyx (talk) 22:57, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Sources on this subject, outside of the games, are far and few between; but there is the virtue video narrated by Richard Garriott that came out around Ultima 9. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deplicator (talk • contribs) 15:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
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BetacommandBot (talk) 02:44, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
In the book "Ultima: The Avatar Adventures" (ISBN 1-5595-8130-1), there's an interview with Richard Garriot (pp. 369):
"And then I happened upon the fact that those eight or ten or twelve [emotional motivators] were all combinations of Truth, Love and Courage, which came to me not after watching the Wizard of Oz. However, it was reinforced less than a week after having reached the conclusion myself by watching the Wizard of Oz and deciding that he had come to the same conclusion, too." (Emphasis not mine)
DoktorSeven (talk) 03:42, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
Ok, pulling off this merge is gonna be a hefty task, and needs to be done with the utmost care. First of all, the most important thing to do will be making sure that the stuff covered most by outside sources as significant outside of just the game is well summarized, and the rest is carefully trimmed.--Yaksar (let's chat) 02:34, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
Turns out that Quests features a table of the virtues and their relationships to principles, colors, character classes, dungeons, companions and other things. This gives us a third-party source for our table about the virtues. Nice. The table was a definite keeper anyway, but more sources is always good. So... how does one add cite tags to a table? --Kizor 08:14, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
Hmm, seems I was a bit late to the afd party, to which I would have voted "keep, but tidy up and refimp". I had hoped this page would have been tidied up a bit, but wasn't this trimming an uneven hedge with a clusterbomb? I like encyclopaedias and one thing that the digital age promised was deep and wide coverage beyond that possible on dead trees. So it is interesting and a bit depressing that it seems a trend of late at wp is defining what wp "is not" rather than what it could be: there are few things wp is but a great many things wp isn't, and "wellspring of information" is one thing it apparently shouldn't be. These debates about what wp should be seems to always lead to overly rigid notions that boils down to form over function and subsequent prunefests with draconical rethorics that Blackthorn himself would be proud of. I guess that the editors contributing to this believes they are doing good, but for whom? Every time I see this happen I only see articles of less use and value for me, and I would believe I am part of the population of wp users. Prune enough and there will be left articles of marginal use only, which I doubt is what anyone would want. --Miqademus —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.243.247.254 (talk) 23:54, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
The merge has been completed as per the consensus at the AFD. Thanks to myself and Kizor for doing the dirty work. If there is any other info that helps explain the significance of the virtues in the game series, you just have to go into the article history and pull it out and help with the merge. Shooterwalker (talk) 16:23, 16 April 2011 (UTC)