- ... that in 1783, David Cooper published an essay condemning slavery in a leading Quaker publication addressed to the US government, with George Washington privately signing his name to a copy?
Gwillhickers Nikkimaria Cwmhiraeth StudiesWorld
I'm trying to parse this. As it is, it sounds like maybe it's the leading quaker publication that was addressed to the government, while actually the essay is. But there are just so many parts. I was thinking maybe this helps:
- ... that in 1793, David Cooper published an essay in a leading Quaker publication condemning slavery and addressed to the US government, with George Washington privately signing his name to a copy?
Does that seem better? Or does it now just sound like it's a leading publication that condemns slavery? Any other suggestions? --valereee (talk) 12:40, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- You're right, there are too many clauses here. Just trim it to:
- ALT1: ... that in 1793, David Cooper published an essay condemning slavery in a leading Quaker publication, and George Washington privately signed his name to a copy? Yoninah (talk) 12:44, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- I like this version (Yoninah's ALT1). I will note that I added "privately". If others think it overcomplicates it, it can be removed, but I thought that it could give an incorrect impression that Washington publicly supported it, if there wasn't further clarification. StudiesWorld (talk) 13:47, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- @StudiesWorld, Yoninah, and Valereee: One of the most significant points has been removed. Addressed to the US Government. As such, the publication caused a lot of controversy. The essay wasn't just some passing Quaker publication read only by Quakers. It was also published in newspapers, specifically addressed to "the rulers of America", and received a lot of notoriety when it hit the fan of the US government. Copies of this specific essay were handed out by Anthony Benezet, Cooper's colleague, to Congress, Washington. Jefferson and the New Jersey Legislature in Cooper's home state. The original hook was only 184 characters to begin with. There's really no pressing need to water it down to almost a boring statement. Also, no one knows when and in what capacity Washington signed the copy, and none of the sources say "privately", and the article doesn't, so we should keep the original research out of the hook. It's a rather simple statement, and the most comprehensive. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 16:19, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- ALT2 ... that in 1783 David Cooper published an essay condemning slavery in a leading Quaker publication addressed to the US government, with George Washington signing his name to a copy? – (178 characters)
Gwhillhickers, ALT2's got the same issue as the original -- it reads as if it's the quaker publication that is directed at the government, but it was the essay that was directed at the government. --valereee (talk) 16:36, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
Re: privately -- the article says Washington later signed a copy and kept it in his private library. I think that saying Washington signed a copy sounds like it might have been a contemporaneous and public act. --valereee (talk) 16:37, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- Valereee see this ginormous discussion/RFC re the tract on Talk:George Washington/Archive 33. We do not know when or why GW signed the tract. All we know, from sources available, is that Cooper wrote it, handed it out liberally to many members of the government, and at some point a copy made its way to Washington's library, at some point it was bound with other such tracts and that one, being the first in the bound book, was signed. Per the sources, we should say "privately" or leave out the signed bit altogether. Victoria (tk) 20:21, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, per the sources. The sources (Hayes, pp.291-292; Morgan, p.235 and Furstenberg, p.264) do not say "privately", as if no one ever knew about it at all, only that Washington kept the copy in his private library. Again, we should not read our own speculations into matters, as this is OR. We should also not assume a given reader will interpret it this way, or that. The important points are, it was a tract condemning slavery, addressed to the US gov, and that Washington thought enough about it where he signed it. If any of the readers want to inquire further they will go to the article, and even go as far as to read the sources themselves. All we can do is say Washington signed it. i.e.Washington approved Cooper's message. That's the major point of the hook. The hook, nor the article or the sources, doesn't say Washington signed the tract at a public ceremony, and it also doesn't say he signed it in solitude. Valereee's ALT3 is fine, and retains the important points. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 02:20, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
- Since someone took it upon themselves to add "privately" to the hook, and even removed "addressed to the US gov", before placing the nomination in the Queue, and before this discussion was resolved, then I suppose what's done is done. I must say, what's the point of discussing matters if a given editor is just going to do what they please anyway? I'm not an Administrator so I can not make the correction to the hook now that it's in the Queue. Would an Administrator be good enough to at least remove the OR from the hook? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 02:29, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
- Gwillhickers, it's not done; we can still edit. We moved it to queue to allow the prep setters room to work. If you have concerns, we can still discuss. --valereee (talk) 10:46, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
- Okay, I've moved it out of queue 4 and into prep 5 to give us time to discuss. Gwillhickers can you think of an ALT that will satisfy the original concerns about too many clauses causing confusion over which was directed at the US government, the essay or the leading publication, and will also address concerns about causing confusion as to whether Washington signed the tract privately/later or publicly/contemporaneously? --valereee (talk) 10:54, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for moving the hook out of the Queue and renewing my faith in the DYK process. I had assumed this was a done deal and that my view had meant nothing to nobody. Okay, I am not sure how we can remove too much of the hook and keep it's overall significance. The fact that it was addressed to the US government, while Washington, a slave owner, was president, has great significance and implication. Again, this wasn't some passing editorial or some such - it turned a lot of heads. My latest version (ALT3) was down to 178 characters, down from 186 that was approved by two other editors originally. I'm concerned that if we remove anything else it will lose much significance and come off not nearly as intriguing. How about this, with the removal of "leading Quaker publication", and condensed even further? Hope this works. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 16:55, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
- ALT4 : ... that in 1793 David Cooper published an essay condemning slavery addressed to the US government, with George Washington signing his name to a copy? – (147 characters)
- Gwillhickers, the bit about Washington still makes it sound like he might have signed the tract publicly/contemporaneously, which apparently we can't confirm? The construction cut down to its basic parts is "in 1793 Cooper published essay, with Washington signing a copy." Which to me sounds like they're concurrent events. I apologize for seeming to be nitpicky. I want to find something that works for you, I just want to ensure the hook doesn't end up getting pulled because of error reports, and without clarifying that, I'm afraid there will be concerns raised. Sorry to keep pinging you, doing it purely for purposes of time, if you don't need me to do that to ensure you know the convo has continued, tell me to stop! --valereee (talk) 17:06, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
- Gwillhickers my bad --valereee (talk) 17:07, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
- Reluctantly I have to agree, it could easily be interpreted that way. We don't know if the signing was completely private, with a few contemporaries, or in public. All we do know is that he signed it later and that eventually everyone knew about it. How about this? – Any further clarification can be found in the article, and the sources. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:15, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
- ALT5 : ... that in 1783 David Cooper published an essay condemning slavery addressed to the US government, with George Washington later signing his name to a copy? — (emphasis added for purposes of this discussion only.)
- That more or less works for me, pinging Victoriaearle Factotem Cmguy777 and Snow Rise as editors who contributed to the RfC and are familiar with the discussion to see if they are okay with ALT5. --valereee (talk) 17:31, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
- It should come as no surprise to the nom that I am not OK with mentioning Washington's signing of his own personal copy at all. Victoria's synopsis of the GW RfC is spot on, and the consensus there was that it was undue weight to mention this in the GW article. To do so, I believe, carries the implication, however small, that his signature was an endorsement. Clearly, this is something the nom believes, but no source supports this.
- Furstenburg, whose Atlantic Slavery, Atlantic Freedom: George Washington, Slavery, and Transatlantic Abolitionist Networks is the most comprehensive source on this subject, informs us on p. 252 that Cooper's tract was the first in one of 36 volumes of pamphlets on a variety of subjects Washington had bound, and that in each volume he signed the cover of the first pamphlet. That suggests to me there was nothing intrinsically important to Washington about this specific pamphlet; he signed it, like he did 35 others, simply because it was placed first in the volume.
- On the same page Furstenberg writes of the six pamphlets on slavery, including Cooper's, "How did Washington interpret these texts? There is almost no internal evidence to help answer this question."
- Then, on p. 274, Furstenberg, referring to the pamphlets on slavery, including Cooper's, writes, "... it is impossible to say whether the readings in this volume might have influenced Washington’s decisions."
- I would suggest a more neutral hook that pays due regard to weight would read:
- Whatever the wording that makes it to the front page, it should at least get the year Cooper's tract was published right: 1783, not 1793. Factotem (talk) 20:07, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
- Thanx for catching that. Changed 1793 to 1783. In any case, merely saying Washington possessed a copy and excluding the points that it was addressed to the US government and that later he signed it is simply too vague, almost pointless. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:51, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
- What makes Washington's signature on his own personal copy, the significance of which we have absolutely no idea because no source tells us, significant enough to be highlighted on the front page, especially in language which might, I believe, be misinterpreted as an endorsement? Factotem (talk) 21:12, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
Why else would he sign it, and go so far as to have it elaborately bound? For no reason, or because he disagreed? It's common knowledge that when you endorse something you approve of it. The sources go even further, and explain how Cooper's ideas of emancipation paralleled those of Washington, in that emancipation should be accomplished through gradual steps and through legislative efforts. Many noted sources cover this. We should let the readers decide as to the significance of the signature. If there are factual errors, or the hook is too long, or wordy, or if the sources are questionable, we can address those issues, per the purpose of this forum. We can't suppress this based on the notion that some readers may interpret it this way or that. Blocking the hook for those reasons alone would amount to censorship. Cooper gained notoriety because of his tract to the US gov and that copies were given to Congress, Washington, Jefferson and others, and because a copy was later signed by Washington. This main feature about Cooper and his work is hook-worthy. Many sources thought it was significant enough to cover. We need more than an assumption about what some of the readers will think here. ALT5 is virtually pointless. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:42, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
- We have to look at the context of the times. The end of the Revolutionary War. The tract was anonymous. Did Washington even know who wrote the tract? Did Washington send the tract to the government? I will agree with Factotem on the signifigance. Maybe Washington may have had some sort of personal repentance on slavery or catharsis by signing his name to the tract. There appears to be no other signifigance. We should not put too much weight on Washington's signature to an anonymous tract. Cmguy777 (talk) 23:31, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
- As this discussion is holding up the promotion of Prep 5 to the queue, which will free up more prep sets, I've moved this hook to Prep 2. Yoninah (talk) 23:42, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
Hi Valereee, acknowledging the ping. I'm fine with Factotem's hook, but haven't actually read the article and would like to take a glance at it, and, if needed, revisit the sources. I can't get to it today but will try to tomorrow. Victoria (tk) 23:51, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
- ALT6 sounds fine, but with all the controversy about the hook facts, I was beginning to wonder if it was possible to propose other hooks that had nothing to do with the tract or Washington, if only as a backup in case the current options don't work out. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:02, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
- Once again, ALT5 is almost meaningless. Washington also "possessed" a lot of newspapers, letters, documents, etc, with all kinds of ideas contained. That by itself means nothing. At least three editors approved the hook with mention of GW's signature, starting with the original, with no opinions about how some readers might interpret it. Since then it has been condensed and has retained its main theme. We don't say why Washington signed it, or that he signed it for no reason at all - that would be asserting a POV and OR. We shouldn't also assume how some of the readers will interpret the idea. All we can do is keep the hook factual, well cited and as short as possible. I agree, that rehashing all the opinions that were covered in the RfC, which was conducted to see if this had enough weight to mention in Washington's biography, is repetitive and holding up matters. The hook in question involves Cooper's biography. This nomination was submitted June 4, almost two months ago. I've done my best to address all concerns fairly, but now it seems the 'opinions' will be never ending. I'm hoping we can just stick to the simple facts, well cited, let readers make up their own minds, and more importantly, that they be given the chance to do so. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 02:08, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
- What about ALT6 then? It sounds like a decent compromise, showing that Washington possessed a copy of the essay while avoiding the mention of the signing (which appears to be the main point of contention here). And personally, considering how well-known Washington is, I'd think that something being in his possession would be of interest in itself regardless of context. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 04:00, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
- A few points:
- 1., if we go with the Washington signed the tract hook, we have to be careful because as Furstenberg notes, page 263-4, "No evidence has come to light when or how Washington acquired this tract, but it seems likely the author sent it to him .... He signed it on the cover page", (Atlantic Slavery, Atlantic Freedom: George Washington, Slavery, and Transatlantic Abolitionist Networks);
- 2., I hadn't actually read the article until last night and in trying to find verify the hook looked at the sources and see there's CP in the article. Then I noted Nikkimaria flagged it. So I'm not sure why it's been promoted. FN 23 say, "Cooper published the tract with the intention that it be read broadly in the various colonies at a time when the Quakers were not in the best favor due to their non-violent and passive involvement in the American Revolution. As a result, Cooper decided to publish his tract anonymously, concealing its Quaker origins.[23]", source say, "Cooper’s second tract, A Serious Address to the Rulers of America (1783), was intended to be read broadly in the colonies at time when Quakers were out of favor due to their non-participation in the American Revolution ... As a result, Cooper published this tract anonymously, obscuring its Quaker origins".
- 3., would be fine with Narutolovehinata5 suggestion to leave out the Washington signature altogether, but first think someone should look more carefully at the article. I'd volunteer but cannot do so today. Sorry. Victoria (tk) 12:55, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
As mentioned, we don't say when or why Washington signed the tract, or that he approved it because he signed it - nor can we say he disapproved. Yes, his signature does suggest he approved -- he wouldn't have signed his name to the tract if he disagreed with it, so no one is advancing some bizarre or unlikely idea here. We let readers decide. i.e.We do know Washington's ideas about emancipation involved a gradual process, via legislation, and that they were not only the same as Cooper's ideas, but like Lafayette's, who also wanted to bring slaves into the free world via gradual steps, via legislative measure, rather than just setting them free all at once, with no means of support or place to live, and nothing but a pat on the back and good wishes. Yes, Cooper had his doubts about whether his tract would actually prompt Washington into taking immediate action, but that doesn't change the fact that Washington signed the tract, placed it at the top of other such tracts and had them elaborately bound for his personal library. Cooper also published the tract anonymously, which doesn't change the fact that Washington signed it. The important consideration was the publication's contents. Anyways, ALT5 is the most comprehensive, yet simple and neutral. We let the readers take it from there. In fact, the hook will invite further inquiry just as we've seen it done here in this forum, which is the purpose of hooks in general. Merely saying Washington "possessed a copy" with no mention that he signed it, and with no mention that it was specifically addressed to the US gov is meaningless and will hardly invoke further inquiry. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:22, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
- Considering multiple editors have raised concerns about the signing part and its implications, it does seem quite likely that the hook may have to go up without it. Why the apparent persistence in including the signing when, as long as the mention of Washington is there, arguably the hook works even without it? Like, if the point was to mention the connection to Washington, then ALT6 seems to be a decent compromise in maintaining that fact while avoiding the contentious point. Is there really a difference in hookiness if we mention that Washington signed the hook as opposed to merely possessing it? If, for the sake of discussion, if it was instead Thomas Jefferson or some other American politician that signed/possessed it, would you still want the hook fact to focus on the signing as opposed to the possession? I admit that I am unfamiliar with the context or background of the RfC so forgive me if I'm showing ignorance of that discussion, I'm just wondering why there's an apparent insistence to mention that Washington had signed a copy, despite there being on-Wiki discussions regarding that fact. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 20:40, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
- Seems we've been through this. Simply saying Washington "possessed a copy" is vague and almost meaningless. Otoh, saying he signed a tract, about anti-slavery issues, that was addressed to the US gov, is not only far more interesting, it's much more comprehensive. Multiple reviewers have approved the hook, which has been condensed, but still has retained its meaning. Since the latest multiple pinging, all we've seen are assumptions about how some of the readers may interpret the hook, and questions about when and why Washington signed the tract. The article and the sources will put things in perspective for those who have any questions. i.e.One doesn't put his 'John Hancock' on a document because he disapproves. There's no hook out there that can explain everything. The purpose of any hook is to invite inquiry, and given all the attention this hook has received so far, I believe it will do just that. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 01:50, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
One doesn't put his 'John Hancock' on a document because he disapproves. So from my interpretation of that comment, are you trying to imply that Washington signed the document because he approved of it? Is that the reason why you want that particular hook fact to go up? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 02:26, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, from a cursory reading of the article, it sounded to me like Washington was signing his copy because it was part of his personal library, the way people stamp their books nowadays. Yoninah (talk) 09:47, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
ALT7: ... that George Washington signed his personal copy of David Cooper's anti-slavery essay "A Serious Address to the Rulers of America, on the Inconsistency of Their Conduct Respecting Slavery", although Washington's thoughts on the essay are unknown? WanderingWanda (talk) 03:40, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
- That suggestion is way over the character limit and is too long anyway. ALT6 gives the intended meaning of that in a more concise way. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 03:51, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
- OK, struck as it's over the character limit. WanderingWanda (talk) 02:06, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
- Once again, ALT6 obscures the intended meaning, ignoring that it was addressed to the US gov and that later Washington signed a copy. Once again, simply saying someone "possessed a copy" is practically meaningless. Washington also "possessed" many letters from Jefferson. Does this mean he agreed with Jefferson's ideas, or that he was a close friend? More comprehensiveness is needed. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 16:57, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
- @Gwillhickers: you are not allowed to edit your own hook in prep. Since this hook has been pushed back a few preps and the new prep is soon to be promoted, I'm returning this whole nomination to WP:DYKNA so it can be worked out before promotion. Yoninah (talk) 09:51, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
- @Yoninah: - My apologies for that. I had corrected the date and substituted "addressed to the US Government" for "leading Quaker publication", as that is one of the main points in the hook. All occurrences of 1793 have been changed to 1783. ALT1 - ALT5, has been approved by at least four editors. As the same opinions have been addressed more than once I'm hoping we can finally go forward with the below hook which has been further qualified, reflecting WanderingWanda's input. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 16:57, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
- ALT8 :
... that in 1783 David Cooper published an essay condemning slavery addressed to the US government, with George Washington later signing his personal copy? — (emphasis added for purposes of this discussion)
|