The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Evrik (talk) 17:30, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Shireen Abu Akleh

(
)
Nakba Day protestor holding photos of Abu Akleh
Nakba Day protestor holding photos of Abu Akleh
Shireen Abu Akleh
Shireen Abu Akleh

Created by Ezlev (talk). Nominated by Thriley (talk) at 19:16, 18 May 2022 (UTC).

It's too long. The hook should not be longer than 200 characters. --Mhhossein talk 17:32, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
@Ezlev: Any ideas? I think the Nakba Day hook is fine. Thriley (talk) 22:20, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
What about the ALT4:
Thriley: Do you have any responses for the objections raised against the Nakba day hook? I think if you can omit the Nakba day and just mention the international protests (which is well supported by the sources), then you may have the chance of having the picture along with the hook on the main page. --Mhhossein talk 05:30, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
I think it is not crucial to include Nakba, the picture has it anyway, its enough.Selfstudier (talk) 10:43, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Would it be possible to run the ALT4 hook with the picture of the protest? Thriley (talk) 22:33, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
I would go with a more relevant hook if the protest picture is to be featured, too. Though we may consider sth like:
*ALT4 a:... that journalist Shireen Abu Akleh (her death protest pictured) was shot dead despite wearing a blue vest with "PRESS" written on it while covering a raid by the Israel Defense Forces in the West Bank?
@Thriley and Selfstudier: Your thoughts? --Mhhossein talk 13:35, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
I think we should just get this done, it's been a while now. Personally, if it was me looking for a hook today it would be that subsequent to her death, multiple reliable sources (NYT, CNN, WAPO, AP, BELLINGCAT) have concluded she died as a result of Israeli fire.Selfstudier (talk) 13:50, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
Selfstudier: Could I ask you suggest a hook based on the recent developments? --Mhhossein talk 18:28, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
From the same para of the lead as ALT 4, the most recent development (ALT 5?) "Separate investigations by Associated Press, CNN, Washington Post, The New York Times and Bellingcat independently concluded that fire from Israeli forces was the likely cause of Akleh’s death."? Selfstudier (talk) 18:56, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
In light of Selfstudier's comment, I suggest the following:
*ALT5:... that journalist Shireen Abu Akleh (her death protest pictured), killed despite wearing a blue "PRESS" vest, was shot by Israel Defense Forces bullet according to several independent investigations?
@Thriley and Selfstudier: what do you think? --Mhhossein talk 07:40, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
@Thriley: Are you willing to keep up with the nomination? --Mhhossein talk 04:13, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
This hook is what I would like to see, but I think others should comment on it besides me. Thriley (talk) 04:29, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
Thriley: So you should use a ((subst:DYK?again)) template to request for a new reviewer. --Mhhossein talk 04:48, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
  • You seem to be misreading what is said in Wikipedia's voice. We dont say the IDF shot her, we say several independent investigations have concluded the IDF shot her, and they did. nableezy - 13:19, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
  • The US for example said "most likely" also, at the very least it'd be misleading. Sir Joseph (talk) 15:56, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
  • Yes, the US said that, the investigations it is referring to are the independent investigations by Washington Post, NY Times, and Bellingcat. That is absolutely not misleading, and the objection is baseless. nableezy - 17:42, 5 July 2022 (UTC)\
  • Minor copy edit, ... that journalist Shireen Abu Akleh (protest against her killing pictured), killed despite wearing a blue "PRESS" vest, was killed by Israel Defense Forces soldiers according to multiple investigations by independent press agencies? nableezy - 17:43, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
@Nableezy: Thanks for your interest. Your suggested hook is too long. It shouldn't be longer than 200 characters (use this tool to check your changes). --Mhhossein talk 15:04, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
Then ... that journalist Shireen Abu Akleh (protest against her killing pictured), was killed by Israeli soldiers according to multiple investigations by independent press agencies? nableezy - 15:43, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
I still find Alt5 more interesting since it features she was killed despite wearing a PRESS vest. Your thoughts? --Mhhossein talk 15:53, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
Think it flows poorly, and dont think we need a despite in it. nableezy - 16:01, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
there was a discussion on the talk page and the hook is tweaked as such:
--Mhhossein talk 14:26, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

ALT6 "Separate investigations by Associated Press, CNN, Washington Post, The New York Times, Bellingcat the United Nations and the US government all independently concluded that fire from Israeli forces was the likely cause of Akleh’s death." Selfstudier (talk) 18:56, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion but we don't need to name those outlets/agencies, for the sake of brevity. --Mhhossein talk 06:12, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
Striking Alt6 due to opposition, I will refrain from further comment here. Selfstudier (talk) 09:14, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

New review needed for hook. Thriley (talk) 15:55, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough

Policy compliance:

Hook eligibility:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
QPQ: Done.

Overall: I added a citation needed tag in the "Reactions" section that needs to be resolved.
For the hook: This is a hotly contested part of the world, with many strong opinions. I don't think it's appropriate on the main page to state that the IDF killed Akleh, even though multiple investigations have claimed it. Furthermore, only one source in the article verifies that Akleh was wearing the blue press vest, but the hook makes it seem like multiple investigations claim this, so I don't think this is great to put together. I suggest another hook that focuses on a different aspect of this article.
As a side comment, I highly suggest that the article receive a copyedit, keeping in mind WP:SUMMARY and WP:NOTNEWS. There is a lot of information in the later half of the article that can be more effectively summarised or split into subheadings, especially the "Reactions" and "Investigations" sections. Z1720 (talk) 02:01, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

I fixed the cn issue. As far the blue vest, that isnt even contested. She was pulled out with her still wearing the vest. I disagree strongly with the idea that we cannot say a fact reported by several sources because it is a "hotly contested part of the world", that cannot seriously be the standard here. It is almost uncontested at this point that the IDF killed her. But what the hook says is that several investigations found that, and that is a fact that is amply sourced and undisputed. nableezy - 02:12, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
@Nableezy: I still do not think it is a good idea for the main page to accuse the IDF of killing someone, even if multiple press investigations came to that conclusion. If you disagree, I'm willing to open a discussion on WT:DYK to get more opinions on this. Z1720 (talk) 14:44, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
By all means open that discussion. This seems to be entrenching systemic bias in to the main page. Previously Israeli occupation of the West Bank was rejected on such spurious grounds that it left me completely dissuaded to participate here. The material is NPOV, well sourced, meets all the requirements, and is interesting. That is exactly what DYK should be feauturing. nableezy - 14:48, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
I posted a feedback request at Wikipedia talk:Did you know#Feedback requested. Hopefully more editors will give their opinions below on the suitability of ALT5a. Z1720 (talk) 15:49, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
@Z1720: To me, it reads that you are suggesting that the nomination meets all the criteria but should be censored for content reasons. That's not generally how Wikipedia works, and it's also not provided for in DYK's many, many rules. It is a bit inflammatory of you to repeatedly state this DYK hook "accuses" the IDF of killing someone. It's written in NPOV voice and attributes the assertion to reliable sources, as is Wikipedia's style. Putting this hook on the main page as it's written would not amount to Wikipedia accusing anyone of anything. It's fine to give it more scrutiny to ensure neutrality and accuracy, but I don't think we should prevent a neutral, factual statement from being featured on DYK just because you think the subject matter is likely to encounter denialists. (In fact, you could more easily argue the opposite.) Dominic·t 15:28, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
@Dominic: The hook is accusing the IDF of killing someone (even if it's multiple news investigations that have made this determination.) DYK needs to be extra cautious about putting stuff like that on the Main Page. I also don't know if it's WP:NPOV to highlight this accusation without also putting IDF's response in the hook. Z1720 (talk) 15:43, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
@Z1720: The hook is quite literally not not doing that, as it states "according to investigations by independent press agencies", and I feel you're being disingenuous in continually mischaracterizing it that way. The phrasing is clearly reporting the conclusions of media organizations, as NPOV calls for. You are the one that posed the original question about whether it was appropriate to have any articles about, which is what brought me here, and you are the one that already reviewed the DYK nom and already found it to be neutral. Now it appears that, after someone came in and answered your original question in a way you did not like, you are saying it is not neutral after all. I also disagree with your current interpretation of neutrality, since the way it works on Wikipedia is not bothsidesism. I read the article and found that there are no serious journalists espousing that view, and even Israeli allies dispute their claims, so it would not be neutral to present this as simply two sides of a debate. Dominic·t 21:52, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

So where are we at with this? Z1720 you said you would solicit feedback, that feedback was given by Dominic. Is there some outstanding issue here? nableezy - 19:00, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

  • @Nableezy:Valereee suggested building a hook around her funeral. I'm going to suggest some hooks, but another reviewer will need to approve them (note, I already reviewed the article above and the sourcing concern was resolved, so I think reviewers only need to review the proposed hooks).
  • I like ALT7 more because it lets the reader know that Abu Akleh was a reporter. While ALT8 is negative, I think it's appropriate because the Israeli government investigated the incident, so there's no dispute that the police attacked the mourners. Thoughts? Z1720 (talk) 19:24, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
And Dominic suggested that the objection to the hook on her killing was baseless. I would like that hook reviewed by somebody else if you are unwilling to proceed with it. nableezy - 19:33, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
I see nothing wrong with Alt7. --evrik (talk) 20:17, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Theres nothing wrong with alt5a, and it is much more interesting. But alt7 is a non-starter IMO, it begs the question of shot by who. Put in the passive voice too. And beyond that, she was killed, not just shot. All this to avoid directly stating a completely uncontentious fact. nableezy - 20:59, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
  • @Thriley: Would you like to use ALT5 ALT5a, or do you have a suggested ALT? Z1720 (talk) 20:27, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
  • ALT7 and ALT8 are way less interesting than ALT5a, which I think is what Thriley's wants. --Mhhossein talk 10:59, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Comment I like ALT7 its most neutral description of events.--Shrike (talk) 12:08, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

There is nothing non-neutral about ALT5a. That is a falsehood that is repeated ad nasueum so as to pretend it is true. And Alt7 is a terrible hook, it downplays what happened to "she was shot", and begs the question of who killed her. Dominic, any suggestion on how to move forward here? nableezy - 15:40, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
There seem to be stonewalling by some users against the proceeding of Alt5a to the main page since I can't see any substantiated objections against it. We may go be a new reviewer. --Mhhossein talk 12:35, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Asking for a new reviewer to try to get this moving. I've already approved the article, so reviewers only need to evaluate the proposed hooks that are not stricken above (ALT5a, ALT7, ALT8). Z1720 (talk) 14:21, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

For ease (slight c/e on alt5a):

I think ALT7 is a non-starter, she was not simply passively shot, and ALT7 and ALT8 are much less interesting and avoid the main topic of the article entirely. nableezy - 14:50, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

  • I find that 5a is a provable hook, with such independent investigations from sources we consider generally reliable including the AP, CNN, and Bellingcat (though Al Jazeera, whose article is in English, I handle with a bit more care in line with its description at RSP — Some editors say that Al Jazeera, particularly its Arabic-language media, is a partisan source with respect to the Arab–Israeli conflict.) mentioned in the "Subsequent investigations" subsection.
  • ALT7 consists also of facts that can be found in the article, though it's my secondary choice because of the idea that it "evades" the topic. If 5a is objected to in the prep and queue process, 7 may be acceptable.
  • While ALT8 is also a fact, I feel like it may be unduly negative toward Israel in its short form without context.
You missed 'New York Times' investigations in your list. --Mhhossein talk 12:12, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

@Sammi Brie: Al-Jazeera released some images of Abu Akleh that would be much better to use than this one but would need to slightly modify the hook from saying (protest of her death pictured) to just (pictured). Could we do that and change the image to be used to this one? nableezy - 16:59, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Category