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G’day DMacks
I write to gauge your thoughts about a proposal to change the nonmetal categories appearing in our periodic table from {reactive nonmetals} and {noble gases} to {coactive nonmetals} {halogen nonmetals} and {noble gases}
thank you, Sandbh (talk) 07:28, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
Context. There has been some discussion about nonmetal categories at WP:ELEMENTS.
I suspect most active members of that project (including me) would agree to divide the reactive nonmetals i.e. the nonmetals other than the noble gases, into two relatively clear and self-descriptive categories. However, since the WP periodic table was created, we haven't found a good way of doing this.
I caveat the expression "relatively clear" by what we say in our periodic table article:
That said, didactically speaking, the use of "natural" classes or clusters to organise information supports content processing.
In Wikipedia history, the categories of "other nonmetals" and halogens are the two most enduring nonmetal categories used in our periodic table. That was until we started complaining about what a non-informative category name "other nonmetals" was.
Now, the halogen category is consistent with the traditional aspect of teaching the periodic table by contrasting the alkali metals with the halogens.
Long story short, we don’t currently have a halogen category because we weren't able to satisfactorily characterise the other nonmetals as something other than {other nonmetals}. So we decided that they and the halogen nonmetals would collectively be the reactive nonmetals.
Developments. A couple of articles in the peer-reviewed literature have prompted me to revisit this question. The first is "Metals are not the only catalysts", in Nature. The second is "Organising the metals and nonmetals", in Foundations of Chemistry (disclaimer: 1, authored by me; 2, the scheme I propose is not the same as that in this article).
The upshot is that the other nonmetals can be characterised by their:
The first six properties of the nonmetals in this part of the periodic table are documented in the literature. #7 is an observation by me.
Coactive. In light of properties 1, 3, 4 and 6, I suggest the term "coactive nonmetals" would be a good way of referring to the other nonmetals. The remaining nonmetals (F, Cl, Br, I) then become the halogen nonmetals, thus restoring the pre-eminence of this category. Here, we show astatine as a post-transition metal since condensed astatine is expected to be a full-fledged FCC metal.
"Coactive" means, "acting in concert; acting or taking place together". That seems like a good adjective wrt the covalent compounds of H, C, N, O, P, S and Se. For their polymeric compounds, e.g. of H, N, O or S, the connection is to the linked nature of their repeating structural units. That is how the literature tends to deal with the nonmetals, except that it has no common term for the first category. There is also the catalytic conation of "coactive".
The literature. Bear in mind the expression coactive nonmetals is not found in the literature.
That said, the complementary term "coactive metal" is found in literature, in the following senses:
There are several other references in the literature to "co-active" elements, materials or substances, including manganese, iron, nickel, cobalt and plutonium.
In the endeavours by WP:ELEMENTS to nail the other nonmetals, we will have now gone full circle from the original {other nonmetals and halogens} → {polyatomic nonmetals and diatomic nonmetals} → {reactive nonmetals}. Now we have a putative categorisation scheme for going from {reactive nonmetals} → {coactive nonmetals} and {halogen nonmetals} that would fulfil the worthy intentions of our predecessors.
Question: Is "coactive nonmetal" a neologism or is it a descriptive phrase, c.f. "coactive metal"? If there are coactive metals does this suggest there are coactive nonmetals? The other nonmetals category is well enough seen in the literature. The covalent-polymeric, biological, catenative, interlinked, combustive/explosive, and organocatalytic properties of the nonmetals in this part of the periodic table are documented in the literature. Historically, and as noted, the "other nonmetals" category is the most enduring nonmetal category used in the Wikipedia periodic table, until we started complaining about what a non-informative category name this was. Do we now have enough content, in pursuit of a better encyclopedia, to support a change back to a binary categorisation of the nonmetals as coactive (formerly other) nonmetals, and halogen nonmetals? ♦
Hey DMacks! Been a long time. The situation is a bit of a conundrum. By rights we should show an other nonmetals category since that is the most popular categorisation in the literature. That said, we have a better descriptive term. And our WP:NEO policy can accomodate this:
On the first article, we even have an article on organocatalysis, which refers to, "a form of catalysis, whereby the rate of a chemical reaction is increased by an organic catalyst referred to as an "organocatalyst" consisting of carbon, hydrogen, sulfur and "other nonmetal" ^_^ elements found in organic compounds". So that aspect of the properties of the elements found in this part of the periodic table doesn't concern me.
It does not seem "right" to me, in the sense of a better encyclopedia, that all the properties involved are set out in the literature, and there is a popular (relatively-speaking) non-descriptive category name, when there is a better, more descriptive adjective for the nonmetals involved. I don't see how replacing a non-descriptive adjective with a descriptive adjective would be a show-stopping violate WP policy. Sandbh (talk) 08:11, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
On organocatalysis, usage in same is one shared attribute of the nonmetals in question. My intent was to note we have an article on that topic, mentioning the use of C, H, S and other nonmetals found in organic compounds, to this end, that was all.
I agree with your sentiment regarding other nonmetals. That said, a completely generic term(?), it seems to me, would be pre-halogen nonmetals, as that is what they are, no more no less. Sandbh (talk) 06:25, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
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17:59, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
Please refrain from introducing inappropriate pages, such as User:DMackz, to Wikipedia. Doing so is not in accordance with our policies. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Under section G3 of the criteria for speedy deletion, the page has been nominated for deletion.
If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. ɴᴋᴏɴ21 ❯❯❯ talk 08:16, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for inserting the image in 2,1,3-Benzothiadiazole.Nihaal The Wikipedian (talk) 10:09, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
Draft:1,2,3-Benzothiadiazole.Nihaal The Wikipedian (talk) 11:36, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
I am confused. Why did you revert my edit inserting my picture which looked in good size . Nihaal The Wikipedian (talk) 14:48, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
Hello. Are you sure about this[1] I always thought they called it + (at some time) and then later figured out that that was the R-isomer? (I will try to find a source to prove myself wrong) Christian75 (talk) 05:43, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
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15:59, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1,3-Diphenylisobenzofuran&diff=978042293&oldid=978032417
Why you deleted the edits — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rahulsoman (talk • contribs) 19:00, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
I could not get notified for your reply. So please remove my recent write up. Its clear for me Rahul Somantalk - contribs 23:35, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
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16:18, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/978042293
Found that you removed my edit in this page. DPBF is a chemical compound widely used in chemistry a d biology research world to determine the concentration of singlet oxygen produced. So basically its a indicator. I just mentioned the procedure there in the article. Instead the reaction and all the research fellow working with specific compound will be more beneficial with thay write up. Its my perspective. Is there any rules in wiki we should never add such writeups like that. If you felt it as unwanted discussion just leave it sir. This ia Rahul Somantalk - contribs 23:21, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
I just submitted a case to SPI that might be of interest to you. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 19:36, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
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21:26, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
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21:23, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
The Original Barnstar | |
Hi DMacks! Thanks for everything you did to 1,2,3-Benzothiadiazole. Acidic Carbon (Corrode) (Organic compounds) 14:16, 1 October 2020 (UTC) |
Hello, according to Wikipedia, people are allowed to put ONLY reliable information. I am not doing any disruptive editing. Please understand. The info on that site is reliable. If you don't believe, you can check some other source and let me know if I am wrong in the external link or reference I am providing or not. Hope you understand Regards Shivansh Goswami — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shivansh Goswami (talk • contribs) 03:19, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
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16:24, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
I see you are on the case - and I concur with the ridiculous diformaldehyde redirect. I took a look at his edit history today and there is another for a redirect for 123 Benzothiadiazole. I think we are going to have to do something more assertive about these disruptive and time-wasting contributions. I'm looking to you for suggestions as I'm still somewhat inexperienced in this area. Michael D. Turnbull (talk) 10:30, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Dodecahedrane, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Torsional strain.
(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 06:56, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
Hello, I can't agree to your revert and consindering my editions as vandalism. Tommy Wiseau is Tomasz Wieczorkiewicz and it is confirmed in given sources from USA and Poland. He isn't D. B. Cooper nor Jesus nor alien as many Americans think, he is from Poland. These documents can't be hidden as Tommy lost a court trial this year which justified that these documents are publicly available, so I think that his personal data should be set in Wikipedia. Regards, --Qqq1000 (talk) 12:06, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
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15:23, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
Hi DMacks,
Thanks for the recent advice on adding a citation, will make sure to do that in the future for sure!
All the best, GA — Preceding unsigned comment added by Greenadvice (talk • contribs) 20:13, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Xylylene, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Triplet.
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Hi DMacks Thanks for putting me on the right track for the correct way to delete Lasri condensation. I decided to take the nuclear option as I'm too new to these things to be sure how to do otherwise. Please could you now do the honours for 123 Benzothiadiazole, which is the redirect [29]? This is, I hope, the last of the mess made by Nihaal and we certainly don't want to be setting a precedent for redirecting chemical names that otherwise would use commas between the multiple numbers. Particularly here as Benzthiadiazole is already a disambiguation term. Michael D. Turnbull (talk) 13:46, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
This user has been warned several times, but keeps changing the cast order in films such as [30]. Can you block this user please? --TamilMirchi (talk) 03:50, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
Hi DMacks. We more often talk on chemistry pages but today I'd like to seek your help on a minor but important issue. I have been assisting Ed Gold, who created a user account now called User:EddieLeVisco. After a faltering start, he worked out how to ask for changes to be made to the WP article about him and is now contributing elsewhere, especially by getting me to upload files to Commons on his behalf, having gone through the OTRS process. The first of these is copied here.
NOW, in attempting to avoid the hassles which we (I mean WP editors as a whole) put EddieLeVisco through, I have proposed an experiment that I hope will catch on. With his permission, I made his user page into a redirect to Ed Gold so that now he has been through an OTRS-like process he can once-and-for-all be seen to have that association. What I would like now is for you, as an admin, to red-lock the redirect so he won't "lose" the connection by accident. In the long term, we might redirect his (Eddie) Talk Page to the article's Talk Page but for now I don't think that's needed. Ed has submitted an piece for Signpost about his experiences and I'm pretty sure that Smallbones will accept it: possibly even as an article + a Gallery article.
On that topic, is it possible to gently ask the Commons ORTS folk (we had initially a great response from Alfred Neumann) to expedite the OTRS process so that Ed's files can actually be used. I had a terrible fight today at WT:WikiProject_Military_history#Please_free_free_to_use_excellent_new_photographs_by_Ed_Gold because I hadn't realised that each uploaded file has to be approved by the OTRS staff before it can be legitimately used anywhere. The picture copied here is virtually the only one that has such work done. That's not a grumble and as I stated in a recent e-mail to permissions-etc I said "We apologise for bombarding you with these uploads to process. If you can propose an alternative protocol that would give you less effort (and me more) then please do so." Mike Turnbull (talk) 17:34, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
I have been watching developments over the time Mike Turnbull has been kindly helping to edit the Wikipedia article about me. I am not impressed by how Mike Turnbull has been treated, given that he stood up to the plate to help me and no other editor did. All the other editors are up in the peanut gallery criticizing whilst Mike Turnbull has worked extremely hard. It took over 50 emails with :@Cordless Larry: to establish how I could simply contact an editor (to create a new user name and get unblocked) and now this is the result, a large counter-productive and time-wasting activity with people who have far too much free time on their hands and whose toilet training at infancy was brutal, no doubt.
Smallbones asks me to "provide some brief interleaved text to go with photos - more than just a caption, but maybe a paragraph or 2 of text between groups of photos" for The Signpost and when I did provide captions he says that Wikipedia editors might make a problem about the copyright of the text, even though it is MY text and I own the copyright for it. This sort of contradictory behaviour is ridiculous and annoying and sums all of you up. At the beginning, Smallbones also suggested I was a liar because I claimed to have been using Wikipedia since its creation in 2001. Do you think that I am in the habit of mincing my words when supplying my work to media companies around the world? It was also suggested that I might have been involved with 'paid-editing' and another reason to block me. Where was your clipboard toting, hyper checking, triple questioning, repetitive reasoning then to back up that false claim? Do you think I need to be treated like I have done something wrong? I don't need to face this very irrational, narcissistic behaviour of yours.
All I would like is a Wikipedia article that truthfully and correctly displays my work and not a half baked shambles. I don't need to be involved in an infinite game of ping-pong that goes back and forwards with people bent on finding, and creating, problems for the sake of it. And I don't need to spend days on an article for The Signpost when it is only for a 1000 people or so and I am not getting paid. (And when I am not being paid, my work is being devalued!) This is a toxic place to be and editors here need to be more broad-minded in their overall understanding of life. Yes, Wikipedia is a highly trusted resource because facts are well checked before publication, but get a grip people! When it gets to this point you all need to climb down off your high horses and go out for a walk and do something less boring instead. When I read your toings and froings I always think of of the guard in the Monthy Python film 'The Holy Grail' discussing the airspeed velocity of a swallow when questioning the presence of a coconut in Mercia during the time of King Arthur. All you editors are that guard. You can consider the above 'my article' about being a newbie, which has become old, very quickly.EddieLeVisco (talk) 09:02, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
We have policies that are designed to protect us from litigation and living people from lies and exploitation. Copyvio is one of those. Anyone can claim copy right, anyone can claim to be a given person, we need proof of both if you are claiming legal authority over someones work. Sometimes that means that there are problems, that is a shame. But no one has a right to have their work displayed here, nor are we a gallery to display your images. Certain attitudes (such as "I wont do it" or "My WORK!!") will only antagonise other editors (who also also not paid). Not helped when a person who claims to be the actually copyright holder can edit here and upload the images themselves, so it has created a conflict that need never have happened for no perceivable purpose. Accompanied by behaviour that is seen by some as "odd" after all if you have the right you right to use these images you would be willing to provide proof, not ask others to do it. This just made users suspicious as to what was going on. Ir rang alarms bells which subsequent actions did nothing to quieten.Slatersteven (talk) 09:17, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
I have a great deal of sympathy with Ed Gold's point of view here. A newby coming to edit Wikipedia for the first time faces many challenges that are not easily overcome. Things that most people might expect are simply not true on Wikipedia. We can be incredibly picky about our very confusing policies and different editors have different interpretations of these policies. That said I'm doubting that Ed has the ability to overcome these obstacles. As the editor-in-chief of The Signpost, I'm used to actually editing articles that have been submitted. Let me give you just one example of something I want to change in Ed's submission - the first line. "Since January 2001, when Wikipedia was founded, I, along with many millions of others, have been regularly using this online encyclopedia as a brilliant reference tool." In my judgement, many Wikipedians reading that line will perhaps misread that line and think that Ed is saying that he and millions of other people read Wikipedia during the two weeks Wikipedia was open in January 2001. That interpretation is unlikely to be true. I don't think Ed meant to say that, but many Wikipedians will stop and say to themselves "this guy just doesn't know what he is talking about." That's a horrible way to start an article. There are at least 3 other places in the submission that have similar problems that I would ordinarily just edit out and let the author approve at the end (or not publish it if they don't). Ed just doesn't like my editing. I'm sorry but if that is the case, and the photos aren't properly sorted out with OTRS, The Signpost can't publish the submission.
I can send Ed the proper OTRS form and fill it out for him and all he has to do is sign it and send it in. That and saying something like "please edit this submission to the best of your ability." and I'd be ready to publish.
It's a shame the Ed and other Wikipedians can't get together and accomplish what many of us want to do, but at some point we all have time constraints. Ed, send me an email and fill out the form. Otherwise we can't do it. Smallbones(smalltalk) 15:00, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
Are you familiar with their purpose? 46.208.152.102 (talk) 08:37, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
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16:29, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
Facepalm Hey—thanks for pointing that out! I thought I had read/learned the MOSNUM sections pretty well, but I missed that one (degrees with F & C, but not with Kelvin). And it looks like there was a *ton* of discussion about it, too. I ain't gonna poke that hornet's nest... Cheers! — UncleBubba ( T @ C ) 14:30, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
The three-day block you placed for continuing to edit war has expired, and Grnwng (talk · contribs)'s first edit is to revert[33]. I'll write it up at ANEW, but thought you would want to know. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 01:04, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
Hi again DMacks. It was not my intention to mess up your talk page when I posted here on Saturday. Thank you for doing just what I asked you to do and subsequently staying out of the pile-on. Any issue with Mr Gold's photographs has now been resolved: they all now have the corrects OTRS tags. As always with Talk Pages, it's now up to you how you deal with the pile of ordure that followed our initial exchange. I no longer care.... Mike Turnbull (talk) 17:18, 19 October 2020 (UTC)