Case clerks: Sphilbrick (Talk) & Callanecc (Talk) Drafting arbitrator: NativeForeigner (Talk)
Wikipedia Arbitration |
---|
|
Track related changes |
If you wish to submit evidence, please do so in a new section (or in your own section, if you have already created one). Do not edit anyone else's section. Please keep your evidence concise, and within the prescribed limits. If you wish to exceed the prescribed limits on evidence length, you must obtain the written consent of an arbitrator before doing so; you may ask for this on the Evidence talk page. Evidence that exceeds the prescribed limits without permission, or that contains inappropriate material or diffs, may be refactored, redacted or removed by a clerk or arbitrator without warning. |
Any editor may add evidence to this page, irrespective of whether they are involved in the dispute. You must submit evidence in your own section. Editors who change other users' evidence may be blocked without warning; if you have a concern with or objection to another user's evidence, contact the committee by e-mail or on the talk page. The standard limits for all evidence submissions are: 1000 words and 100 diffs for users who are parties to this case; or about 500 words and 50 diffs for other users. Detailed but succinct submissions are more useful to the committee. This page is not designed for the submission of general reflections on the arbitration process, Wikipedia in general, or other irrelevant and broad issues; and if you submit such content to this page, please expect it to be ignored. General discussion of the case may be opened on the talk page. You must focus on the issues that are important to the dispute and submit diffs which illustrate the nature of the dispute or will be useful to the committee in its deliberations.
You must use the prescribed format in your evidence. Evidence should include a link to the actual page diff in question, or to a short page section; links to the page itself are inadequate. Never link to a page history, an editor's contributions, or a log for all actions of an editor (as those change over time), although a link to a log for a specific article or a specific block log is acceptable. Please make sure any page section links are permanent, and read the simple diff and link guide if you are not sure how to create a page diff.
The Arbitration Committee expects you to make rebuttals of other evidence submissions in your own section, and for such rebuttals to explain how or why the evidence in question is incorrect; do not engage in tit-for-tat on this page. Arbitrators may analyze evidence and other assertions at /Workshop, which is open for comment by parties, Arbitrators, and others. After arriving at proposed principles, findings of fact, or remedies, Arbitrators vote at /Proposed decision. Only Arbitrators (and Clerks, when clarification on votes is needed) may edit the proposed decision page.
|}
It is only sufficient to look at the length of the talk page archives.
See Talk:Historicity of Jesus/Archive 36 at 179kb
See Talk:Historicity of Jesus/Archive 35 at 248kb
See Talk:Historicity of Jesus/Archive 34 at 246kb
FearofReprisal files a frivolous RFM: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation/Blanking_of_the_Historicity_of_Jesus_page&oldid=628052108
FearofReprisal files a frivolous AIV https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism&diff=prev&oldid=627919879
FearofReprisal's most recent posting, in which he accuses nearly every other involved editor of "serious misconduct", appears to serve no purpose other than to continue to create hostility. There are times at which the policy to assume good faith must be set aside. FearofReprisal is acting in bad faith to maximize hostility and should be considered to be a troll. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:48, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
Iseeewe posts a rant and gets blocked https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Historicity_of_Jesus&diff=prev&oldid=620051235
Iseeewe remains combative https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AIseeEwe&diff=620585120&oldid=620584778
I believe that the evidence of Kww’s conduct on the article talk page archives. Beginning on 2 September 2014 in the section now at Talk:Historicity of Jesus/Archive 34#Please review Wikipedia policy Kww indicates what seems to me to be a less-than-well founded attempt to impugn others with no basis other than the individuals involved being self-declared Christians or others who would support the existence of Jesus, and also I believe demonstrates a rather remarkable lack of basic competence when dealing with matters of history indicating that sources from Buddhist or other non-related historical sources are missing. First. I guess I should declare that I have checked not only Biblical encyclopedias and Christian encyclopedias, but the most comprehensive and recent encyclopedias on Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, religion in general, and biblical studies and found only three which refer to this topic in any significant way, one being the ‘’Anchor Bible Dictionary’’ and the two versions, original and new, of the ‘’Encyclopedia of Unbelief’’.
It should also be noted that Kww goes on for some time indicating that such sources from other faiths should be included. I believe that the lack of even basic competence in the field of history in general that these comments indicate, given their apparent lack of understanding that history is based on historical methodologies, as has been indicated several times in recent archived talk pages and historically, raises serious questions about whether Kww may insert himself in discussions where he is not qualified to take part given a lack of even the most basic understanding of the topic. I also believe that the comment made by Kww here displays what may reasonably be called lack of judgment considering he made here a statement about how “pseudoscience” is not poorly defined, despite the fact that later in that page I indicate that the OED lists 2 definitions of pseudoscience, each of which is based on 17 definitions of science, leading to 34 definitions of the term pseudoscience itself. I believe even the most basic attempt at the research he seems to demand of others in the first link is something he demonstrably refused to do himself in the comment in the second link. John Carter (talk) 00:46, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
I believe that recent history of the talk page indicates that for certain editors this topic is ultimately one in which they find that their own dearly held beliefs are being challenged, including in that number both atheists and those who religiously belief in Jesus, and that on that basis this article is more or less an inherent battleground, in much the same way as the Climate change article where so far as I can remember both the proponents and opponents of "global warming" have been described by the other side as presenting pseudoscience in their arguments. There also seem to be to "camps" of academics on this issue, although they are of dissimilar size, which further aggravates the problem. John Carter (talk) 00:51, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
It appears that, with the topic-banning of a single problem editor, the conflict has been resolved. The article is now stable, and has been stable since the banning. The warriors that flocked in to support the banned editor have faded back into the mist from whence they came, the heat has dissipated completely and it has been business as usual ever since. The Historicity of Jesus article is now once again a collection of bloated summaries of other articles, containing IMO more duplication than is necessary, but it is at least stable. Part of the underlying problem could be that there appears to be no guideline on how much detail should be included in a WP:General overview article, or on how concise a section ought to be when it summarizes a main article, but those are technical issues rather than burning concerns. The long-running dispute about whether to use the phrase “most scholars” or “virtually all scholars” or “biblical scholars” is tedious, but it’s hardly problematic. The long-running dispute about which sources are biased and which are reliably objective is also tedious, but it’s hardly problematic either. This article – and related articles – are visited from time to time by POV pushers, but this is readily managed through the usual processes. Provided the problem editor remains topic-banned I don’t see any potential for a future flare-up, and so I am not entirely sure if anything remains to be arbitrated here. Wdford (talk) 10:49, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
I would echo John Carter's comments about problems with Kww's arguments; in imo there's not much to add.
It would also appear that it is now permissible once again for all substantiated points of view, including Christian, to be covered in the article material, as it should be. Proof of historicity is not a criterion for article inclusion, and sources have always been allowed to be biased themselves, both being fallacious arguments leveled against Christian apologist sources there. As Wdford says, getting the proper balance in article text and neutrality of statement are the tedious but relevant issues, and that appears to be the nature of the editing now going on.
I have little doubt that editor POV will continue to be a problem from time to time, as it is on many articles, but I agree that there is little to arbitrate at the present time. There is no reasonable way to prevent future disruption by other editors, and there are sure to be future disagreements, as there is no scientific proof from the scholarly world, and the article's subject is thus based on interpretation of evidence that not everyone will accept as valid. It's the nature of the article - inherently subjective. To some, that means bias, when they disagree. Evensteven (talk) 18:14, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
Some of Fearofreprisal's problematic positions are written directly into his presented evidence here (see "polarizing subject"). It is not the subject that is polarizing, but the theorizing about it that polarizes.
Tendentious POV pushing at Historicity of Jesus
Talkpage violations at Talk:Historicity of Jesus
Wdford on Talk:Historicity of Jesus
Three even earlier incident reports were filed at ANI for conduct issues on the Historicity of Jesus article for a total of eight. Ignocrates (talk) 04:48, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
Five incident reports were filed at ANI for conduct issues on the Historicity of Jesus article.
(1) Personal attacks by Fearofreprisal: Hijiri 88 00:35, 27 September 2014 (UTC). A community topic ban of Fearofreprisal was enacted by Tom Paris 19:29, 6 October 2014 (UTC); Robert McClenon was the proposer.
(2) Talk page disruption by SPAs: Jeppiz (talk) 16:19, 6 October 2014 (UTC). Closed as already resolved by Tom Paris 20:01, 6 October 2014 (UTC).
(3) Proposal for an indefinite block of Fearofreprisal: Hijiri 88 00:35, 13 October 2014 (UTC). Withdrawn by Hijiri 88, 03:46, 14 October 2014 (UTC) upon review of terms of the topic ban.
(4) Proposal for a one-way interaction ban of Hijiri 88: Fearofreprisal (talk) 23:50, 13 October 2014 (UTC). Withdrawn by Fearofreprisal 22:24, 15 October 2014 (UTC) to seek a resolution in arbitration.
(5) Proposal for an indefinite site ban of Fearofreprisal: Robert McClenon (talk) 16:25, 15 October 2014 (UTC). No action taken by 17 October 2014 (UTC) with enough votes for acceptance of the request for arbitration.
The series of five filings taken as a whole prolonged and escalated the dispute on the Historicity of Jesus article. Ignocrates (talk) 00:38, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
(1) While done in good faith, a disambiguation article was created without discussion 11:20, 1 October 2014 by Wdford citing WP:BOLD.
(2) This was reverted 17:39, 1 October 2014 by Fearofreprisal citing discuss on the article talk page.
(3) The reversion was undone 18:45, 1 October 2014 by Robert McClenon citing revert not explained.
(4) An RfC was initiated on the talk page 02:44, 2 October 2014 by Robert McClenon. (Also, see the Full RfC.)
(5) This led shortly afterward to filing an incident report for vandalism 06:23, 2 October 2014 by Fearofreprisal citing violation of WP:Deletion policy and requesting intervention. Declined as not vandalism 06:26, 2 October 2014.
(6) A request for formal mediation was subsequently filed 07:21, 3 October 2014 by Fearofreprisal claiming the article was blanked and linking to a talk page discussion on Evading WP article deletion policy.
(7) A direct result of this exchange was a proposal at ANI for a topic ban of Fearofreprisal 12:53, 3 October 2014 by Robert McClenon, citing the creation of the disambiguation article, the incident report of vandalism, and the filing for formal mediation.
While intended to resolve the dispute over article content, the bold creation of a disambiguation article disrupted ongoing discussion on the article talk page and escalated a dispute over editor conduct at ANI, which resulted in a topic ban. Ignocrates (talk) 10:37, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
Clerk note: the following statement was presented by Kww at a time when Kww was not a named party, and copied to the case talk page, per procedures. Because Kww is now a named party, this statement is added here--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:23, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
The fact that I'm not listed as a party here is a sign that Fearofreprisal's filing was focused on the group of editors he opposes rather than attempting to include all members of the dispute. Keeping that flaw in mind, this is a terrible article, and one that is extremely resistant to repair. While Fearofreprisal has cast too large of a net and made a few accusations about motives that can't be substantiated, there's a long-standing problem of a biased source pool in relationship to this topic. The "historicity" of Jesus of Nazareth is an issue studied not so much by historians as by biblical scholars who, unsurprisingly, are generally Christians that have a predisposition towards interpreting the evidence as being in favour of Jesus's existence. Any effort to try to cast the article in that light (not the light that Jesus did not exist, or that evidence demonstrates that Jesus did not exist, but that the consensus that he did exist needs to be weighed in light of the group that has the consensus) gets shut down quickly. Editors that attempt to discuss bias are subject to false claims of attack and bigotry.
The whole dispute smacks of our problems relating to pseudoscience and the various ethnic disputes, and I suspect it's intractable. Smacking Fearofreprisal around may reduce the current noise level, but will do essentially nothing with respect to fixing the underlying problem.—Kww(talk) 01:11, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure this is the right place for this message, but here it goes anyway. Today I received a courtesy message that a proposed decision had been posted. This is the first I had heard since the start of the process. Until today I had been under the mistaken impression that nothing had happened in this case, even though I had the Arbitration page on my watch list. I thought this was because Fearofreprisal was the only one who really wanted this case and that he had abandoned the process. I had wondered whether I should have mentioned this on the article Talk page. Unfortunately I have therefore not been able to participate in the deliberations. I'm sure this is my own fault, not being very familiar with the procedures, but I suspect others may fall victim to the same circumstances in future. It might be good if a better notification procedure were devised. I also wonder how many of the named participants were aware that discussion was in fact taking place. I'll post a copy of the message on the article Talk page. Martijn Meijering (talk) 10:29, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
Allegations have been made here that Fearofreprisal filed a frivolous Request for Mediation. I'm the current Chairperson of the Mediation Committee. I'd simply like to note that unless there is other evidence that Fearofreprisal had improper motives in filing that RFM, that the mere rejection of that case by the Committee should not be taken as evidence of frivolity or bad intent. The case was refused because an RFC was pending, which caused the request to fail to meet Prerequisite to mediation #8: "No related dispute resolution proceedings are active in other Wikipedia forums." RFC is a form of dispute resolution, per the Dispute resolution policy. The fact of the matter is that far more RFM's are refused for failure to meet the Committee's prerequisites than are accepted. The same is true at Dispute resolution noticeboard and, perhaps to a lesser extent, at the Third Opinion project. It is not uncommon in any of those venues for a case to be rejected because of a RFC pending. The fact is that many people simply do not realize that RFC is considered a DR process. Many more simply do not read all the instructions at those forums before filing. I express and have no opinion about whether additional evidence of frivolity or bad intent in the filing of the RFM may or may not exist or, if it does exist, whether or not it is adequate or credible. I also express and have no opinion regarding the other issues raised in this ARBCOM case. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:54, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
before using the last evidence template, please make a copy for the next person
Place argument and diffs which support your assertion; for example, your first assertion might be "So-and-so engages in edit warring", which should be the title of this section. Here you would show specific edits to specific articles which show So-and-so engaging in edit warring.
Place argument and diffs which support the second assertion; for example, your second assertion might be "So-and-so makes personal attacks", which should be the title of this section. Here you would show specific edits where So-and-so made personal attacks.