The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was speedy keep per WP:SNOW. I hesitated to do this because I put in a "keep" !vote myself (although it was originally "neutral"), but Torchiest's source (as well as other editors' points) seems to prove notability; in addition, no one other than the nominator has said "delete". Non-admin closure. Erpert (let's talk about it) 06:57, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative metal[edit]

Alternative metal (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

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A genre that has yet to prove its legitimacy outside of semi-unreliable Allmusic. Most, if not all bands and artists that call themselves alt-metal are generally easily classified as another legit genre. F-22 Raptör^{Aces High♠} 17:23, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. —Cliff smith ^talk 18:00, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*Neutral. I'm not sure why you consider Allmusic to be semi-unreliable (first time I ever heard that term, lol), but the article does need serious work because it seems to focus more on individual bands than the apparent genre itself. I'll flag it for rescue. Erpert (let's talk about it) 17:41, 5 July 2010 (UTC) Keep. Torchiest's source seals it for me. Erpert (let's talk about it) 07:10, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Seems grained deeply into modern heavy metal press terminology (just the other day Blabbermouth referred to Helmet as "alternative metal legends"). Having been tossed around in the press for almost 20 years.. alt-metal has carved such a deep root it's almost turned into a parent genre of other heavy metal sub-genres... (like nu metal and avant-garde metal) The last time it was nom'd it was a speedy keep. Re: WP:SNOW... 2nd nom will likely have the same fate. Wiki libs (talk) 17:56, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consensus can change, though. The last AfD was back in 2005, when rules weren't as strict. Erpert (let's talk about it) 17:59, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Time will tell. Wikipedia is overrun with hundreds of fairy-tale music genres that sound like schoolboy pranks made up on the swings at recess time. This one seems to have a bit more stick to it than others do. Wiki libs (talk) 18:10, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment Just doing a fast Google Magazine search for the term alt-metal results in over 7000 hits. Leaving out the odd 'Popular Mechanics' links there is still a major bomb of "alt-metal" or "alternative meta" being used thousands of times in Billboard, Spin, CMJ Music News, RS etc etc etc to described many different acts. Wiki libs (talk) 18:24, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep No less obviously notable than other genres, and this nomination seems to hang on Allmusic being "semi-unreliable". Has this been discussed or edstablished anywhere? Until Allmusic is defined as an unreliable source, then it's a reliable source, and serves a purpose on this article. The article needs work though, like a lot of others. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:16, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - I agree with Bretonbanquet - The topic to me seems of note. I'd like to see some more reliable sources and some cleaning up of the article; maybe removing alot of the references to bands and relying on description instead? Pmedema (talk)
• Keep - The term is very much applicable in modern music, and has been applied to bands by other sources outside the allmusic website. It just needs to be sourced better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AlecTrevelyan402 (talk • contribs) 18:37, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yeah, modern music from what I have heard is generally nu-metal and metalcore. I have yet to hear of one band that is purely this "alternative metal". I feel that this genre is just an excuse to escape another genre that's generally have gotten bad press. If I can have a list of bands that are of the alt-metal genre and nothing else, I'll drop my nomination.--F-22 Raptör^{Aces High♠} 19:17, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • My question has yet to be answered.--F-22 Raptör^{Aces High♠} 23:01, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Top 10 Essential Alt-Metal Songs from About.com looks promising. —Torchiest ^talk/_contribs 23:25, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. While I understand your waryness of Allmusic's metal coverage ("WHO is black metal? Linkin Park? Riiiight"), in this case the term is very legitimate. It's been thrown around by at least a dozen publications. If you feel the article's presentation leaves something.to be desired, fix it, but wholesale deletion is the exactly wrong answer. --King Öomie 19:23, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • You could address the nominator's concerns by pointing to one of these purported "dozen publications" that documents what "alternative metal" is. "It's a legitimate term." means little coming from people with pseudonyms on a wiki. Sources are your best, and indeed sole, arguments. Sources! Sources! Sources! Uncle G (talk) 23:46, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Click on the Google news search at the top of the AFD. [1] Over a thousand results! Notable news outlets refer to this genre quite often. Its a real thing. Dream Focus 09:10, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep- You can find a good amount of references about the term and Allmusic is without a doubt a reliable source. In addition to the Allmusic entry, Ian Christe has an entire page in his book, Sound of the Beast, about "alternative metal." RG (talk) 21:44, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - This term gets a lot of usage. I'm frankly surprised it has been submitted for deletion, although I see that the sourcing in the article is extremely thin. It's not too difficult to find other reliable sources for this term, however. Here's About.com talking about it, for starters. —Torchiest ^talk/_contribs 22:17, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Good find. I just added that source to the article. Erpert (let's talk about it) 07:08, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at that source actually strengthened my opinion about alternative metal. Let me point out this quote "Alternative metal can sometimes also be called nu-metal, but as we’ll see, that is but one of the many offshoots of this ever-evolving genre." I also would like to point out the bands they call "alternative metal". Staind - Post-Grunge, not even metal. Living Colour - Funk Metal. Faith No More - Funk Metal. Tool - Progressive Metal, Korn - Nu-Metal, Papa Roach - Nu-Metal, System of a Down - Nu-Metal. Chevelle - Post-Grunge, not even metal. Disturbed - Nu-Metal. Slipknot - Nu-Metal. The article strengthens how alternative metal and nu-metal are practically the same genre.--F-22 Raptör^{Aces High♠} 23:26, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, it doesn't; in fact, the article doesn't mention nu-metal at all. Erpert (let's talk about it) 06:42, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you can't find the quote, ctrl+f it. It's there, don't tell me it isn't.--F-22 Raptör^{Aces High♠} 12:50, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I meant the Wikipedia article doesn't say it. What's your problem? Sounds like you're just mad that no one agrees with you. Erpert (let's talk about it) 15:21, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But all of you people are just bringing up a bunch of random sources that most are not even from a music-based website, and stating that as your argument to keep this article. It would be greatly appreciated that people who actually specialize in music articles would be the only ones allowed to vote, because so far, nobody has made their POV arguments on what alternative metal is without going on Google, stating a number of results. Big deal, I can type in "pirate metal" and get 1,150,000 results when that is clearly part of the folk metal genre, or even typing in some absurd thing like "bloody metal" yields 5,070,000 results. Using Google in this argument is invalid to me. One more thing is, I've must've asked this like a thousand times, What is the difference between nu-metal and alternative metal?. Essentially, it can't be proven I guess.--F-22 Raptör^{Aces High♠} 03:38, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What is the difference between nu-metal and alternative metal? It's clear that there is much overlap, and it seems that different music writers make different distinctions between them. For example: A Newsday article by Rafer Guzmán (April 18, 2004; p. C10) seems to suggest that alternative metal has more grunge influences: "...rock radio has returned to the grunge-influenced sound known as alternative metal. Among the more popular practitioners: Smile Empty Soul, Finger Eleven and Three Days Grace." In contrast, "In the late 1990s, the so-called nu-metal bands tried to permanently erase the memory of grunge with a mix of rap and rock. Limp Bizkit, in particular..." Paul Erik ^{(talk)(contribs)} 04:47, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, Paul, I'm not exactly which side you're on. And Raptor, this isn't a vote. Erpert (let's talk about it) 07:03, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, sorry for not being clear. I was mostly responding to F-22 Raptor's question ("What is the difference between nu-metal and alternative metal?"). But I was pointing to a source—the Newsday article, which discusses the evolution of heavy metal subgenres—where distinction is made between "nu-metal" and "alternative metal", so that's an argument to keep both articles. The fact that definitions or examples are hard to pin down is not, to me, a convincing argument to get rid of an article altogether. The article can cover, in a neutral way, what different music writers have said about the alternative metal genre. Paul Erik ^{(talk)(contribs)} 15:52, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Weak Keep - there's just enough coverage around to keep this, and I appreciate the efforts of those who've sourced it. Claritas § 09:56, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak keep per Claritas. I think this is sourced enough and commonly known enough for inclusion. Note that most outcomes in the past three years for recently created genres have been for deletion (see any one of these, or those, or heaven knows whatever Christian genre has been out there.) However, this one has been around the block, so to speak. Bearian (talk) 16:33, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.