The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus, or more accurately try again. This AfD is a clear example of one that should have been broken up with each model nominated individually, as some are clearly more notable then others. No objection to a speedy re-nom on those where consensus appeared to be delete. Wizardman 22:48, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bianca_Golden[edit]

AfDs for this article:

Subject fails BIO1E. She is an also-ran on a television game show, notable only in that context. The fact that a print model gets work as a print model is not notable. We have articles for the winner, runner-up and 3rd place contestants from ANTM. The others are not noteworthy, apart from their appearance on ANTM, and have yet to establish themselves as leaders in their chosen profession. Consequently, I am nominating all but the top 3 finishers from the ANTM cycles for deletion. In time they may prove notable enough for an article in the encyclopedia but until then they are quite well represented at all the various ANTM articles and the ANTM dedicated wiki. L0b0t (talk) 01:41, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Per my above nom. L0b0t (talk) 02:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Toccara Jones No opinion on the rest. Jones was the host of a game show that lasted 85 episodes. As the host, this makes her notable, IMO. Dismas|^(talk) 02:24, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Toccara Jones per Dismas; reasonably notable career after the show. Possibly keep for Kim Stolz as well, since she's been on TV regularly since. I'd redirect all the others to an appropriate article, either a list of contestants or the article on that season of ANTM. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 07:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Jones and Stolz they are successful models, have hosted numzerous shows or worked as correspondants and had small acting gigs. Markley is one of the most successful contestants of the show (winners included) so I guess that makes her notable. Strauss and Golden have been discussed a while back and the result was Keep as they are both successful and memorable contestants. Kuzmich has gotten a lot opf articles in various newspapers for her Asperger (including the New-York Times and one in the French version of Closer) so that makes her notable too. She also co-holds the record for most CoverGirl of the Week titles. Siemgi (talk • contribs) 08:00, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think you need to renominate separately. The individuals are not of the same notability. But here goes:

Bianca_Golden - weak delete : has had some activity since the show, but with one covershot, I would probably say she's under borderline notable per WP:ENTERTAINER for now.
Nnenna_Agba - weak delete I was about to default to AfD in December 2006, but she seems to have had a few important gigs since the show. However, none of the gigs references are from reliable sources.
Heather_Kuzmich - weak delete : has had some activity since the show, but with one covershot, is probably under borderline notable for now per WP:ENTERTAINER. However, none of the gigs references appear to be from reliable sources.
Lisa_Jackson_(Model) - delete : has had a small handful of modelling gigssince the show which, I believe, does not put her above the bar of notability for now per WP:ENTERTAINER.
Toccara_Jones - keep - appears to have found notoreity as a TV presenter.
Ann_Markley - delete per plenty of precedents - no significant achievements since the show. default to AfD in March 2007
Brittany_Brower - weak delete : has had some activity since the show, I believe under borderline notable for now per WP:ENTERTAINER. In addition, none of the gigs references appear to be from reliable sources.
Cassandra_Whitehead - keep default to AfD in November 2006
Lisa_D'Amato - weak keep, per her activities since the show, which appear to be adequately sourced.
Kim_Stolz- weak delete : has had some activity since the show, I believe under borderline notable for now per WP:ENTERTAINER. However, I cannot decide if the gigs' references are from sufficiently reliable sources.
Sarah_VonderHaar - delete per plenty of precedents - no significant achievements since the show, except being a Youtube artist.
Jael_Strauss - delete per plenty of precedents - no significant achievements since the show. Ohconfucius (talk) 10:13, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, if every runner-up deserves his own page, why was Nik Pace's deleted? As for the models's achievement you can see their picture galleries here: http://all-antm.net/index.php . Markley (Cosmo, Cover Magazine, 2 Style Covers, face of Free People Wear), D'Amato (face of Daftbird clothing, Lip service clothing and Clementine clothing + several magazine spreads by Amanda Brooks) and Strauss (face of Hitch Couture) all have over 100 pictures of printwork. And to answer Ohconfucius, Kim Stolz has hosted the MTV movie awards, is an MTV VJ, covered the Fiercees for MTV and has had several covers (Knit, Go NYC...) so to me she's a keep. Siemgi (talk • contribs) 11:32, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fierce; someone actually put these all up. Anyway:
- Toccara Jones/Kim Stolz: Keep, as both have been television presenters and are still active. I think Toccara is obvious (Celebrity Fit Club contestant, BET host), but Kim has also done a lot of MTV (she did some interviewing at the MTV Awards thing recently).
- Lisa D'Amato: Weak Keep. She has found some notoriety outside of the ANTM bubble, with coverage on Perez Hilton's site and such.
- Everyone else: Delete. They have done nothing notable enough to be on Wikipedia. SKS2K6 (talk) 14:57, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep for Heather Kuzmich, spokesperson for autism/asperger, did a Carol's daughter add, very popular contestant to this day. Also strong keep for Ann Markley (in the top three most successful) and Jael Strauss (dealt with the death of a friend by drug overdose in the public eye, had her WTF moments like when she got thrown in the pool by 50Cent, her article states she was voted as one of the most memorable contestants by AOL, by the way so were Markley, Jones and Bower, has a huge campaign with Hitch couture).
Keep for Toccara Jones and Kim Stolz, TV personalities, do I really need to explain? Same goes for Lisa D'Amato, she seems to have had some good coverage.
Weak Keep for Bianca Golden, she walked for several designer, was one of the most outrageous contestants on the show, had a spread in Essence recently, it hasn't been a year since Cycle 9 was over and she already has booked quite many jobs. Same weak keep goes for Sarah Vonderhaar, she is a model, musician and, I think, actress. Her CD got her some news coverage.
For the other ones I don't really know. I mean, they don't really level up to the other girls in terms of notability but each one of them has something that makes her notable inside ANTM and as Toccara Jones said on the Tyra Show, ANTM is a quite high rated show and being notable in it sometimes is enough to make you notable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.194.35.225 (talk) 08:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep for Brittany Bower, her page has a lot of links and she has been featured in several magazine.
Keep for Heather Kuzmich, Jael Strauss, Toccara Jones and Kim Stolz. No need to talk about the last two, it has been covered already. About Jael, if there is one notable non-top-three contestant in ANTM, that's her, she has a longstanding deal with Hitch Couture, sued after someone published some underage naked pictures of her... Heather is to Autism what Caridee is to Psoriasis or Fatima to FGM.
Weak Keep for Bianca Golden, Ann Markley, Nnenna Agba and Lisa D'Amato. Bianca is quite successful for a non winning contestant in a recent cycle, she appeared in a music video for Will I Am, has walked many runways and had a spread in Essence (which is kinda big in the "black model" world). Lisa, well this has been covered amready too. Ann is quite successful even though it is not so covered by gossip sites or such, same for Nnenna although on a lower level.
Weak delete for the rest. Having been on the show, won CoverGirl titles or quit makes them a little notable nonetheless.

To me the main problem with those article is not notability, it's that some of them need to be rewritten a bit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.129.225.186 (talk) 11:13, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still not convinced. Again I must stress that a model getting work as a model is no more notable than a chef getting work in a restaurant or a teacher getting work at a school. Toccara Jones is the only one here who even tries to demonstrate some notability outside of ANTM. One girl has Asperger's, so what. Many people have many afflictions. Having a disease, even being a model with a disease is just not notable. D'Amato gets drunk and exposes herself, that's not notable, that's just a weeknight on Bourbon St. None of these articles contain anything that could not be fit into the articles for their respective seasons on ANTM or, better still, transwikied to the ANTM dedicated wiki. Cheers. L0b0t (talk) 16:30, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Not that I don't generally agree with you, but I gotta point out a few things: [A] Heather got coverage on the New York Times. That's gotta count for something. (I know I voted for her deletion earlier, but I guess I'm just playing devil's advocate here.) [B] Kim Stolz is now an MTV personality, doing things for MTV News and co-hosting the preshow for the MTV Video Awards.
  - The NYT article only mentions her BECAUSE she is a contestant on ANTM that has Asperger's, not because she is a notable person with Asperger's or because Asperger's has made her notable. She still fails BIO1E. Stolz writes for one of MTV's websites, has she achieved acclaim or notoriety in the field of journalism? No, she just has a byline on website. She hosted a preshow for the MTV movie awards, so what? Just being on television is not notable. These subjects, quite simply, fail here, here, and here. Notoriety and notability are not the same thing. Cheers. L0b0t (talk) 18:06, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Well apparently there are people who are convinced so that must mean something, especially when it comes to notability. Kim has been on numerous shows, that makes her notable. Heather has gotten coverage even in France about her Asperger, that makes her notable. Markley, Golden, Strauss, Brower have had a lot of print work, are still talked about to this day and are amongst the most memorable contestants on the show ever, winners included. There have been some print about them and just by the show's (and the Tyra Show's) ratings, they should be notable. Siemgi 16:21, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      - Again, a model getting work as a model is not notable. Yes they get print work, they should, that's their job. Going to work and doing your job are not notable accomplishments. As for the ratings of Tyra's show and ANTM, they are irrelevant to this discussion. Notability is not inherited and being notable for only one event is not good enough. You say "...they are talked about to this day..." but fame and notability are not the same thing. Yes, these people exist. Yes, they were on a television show. Yes, they get employment in their chosen profession. They have achieved fame. They have not, however, done anything superlative or notable in any field of endeavor. They are not, therefore, notable according to our published guidelines here, here, and here. What is it about these articles that you feel could not be included in the articles for the respective ANTM cycles or, better yet, transwikied to the ANTM dedicated wiki? L0b0t (talk) 16:50, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        They are notable contestants in a notable show, that makes them therefore notable. Aside from that they have achieve notoriety, which is a notable fact for reality TV contestants. And by the way all articles have already been "transwikied", the links need to be fixed though... Siemgi 17:27 12 June 2008 (UTC).
        They are non-notable contestants on a semi-notable show. That's why they're up for deletion. The winners are notable in that a) they won, and b) they usually stay in the public eye somehow. Many of the non-winners don't. For example, what exactly has Keenyah done? Jayla? Cassie? Ebony? Bre? Just because they were on a few episodes does not make them worth enough to be on Wikipedia. I would even argue that some of the winners are notable solely for winning; for example, what exactly have Naima Mora and Nicole Linkletter done since? SKS2K6 (talk) 17:46, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        The thing is we're not talking about them. Bre has had quite some work by the way (print and runway) and so did Nicole L. But here people who want to keep the articles are talking about Kuzmich (in the NY Times and record holder for the most CoverGirl of the Week titles), Golden (on a lot of runways and in Essence), Brower (in quite a few magazines), Stolz (on MTV), Jones (on BET), Strauss (Hitch Couture), Markley (lots of print work) and D'Amato (celebrity sites and a lot of print), not Jayla, Ebony or Brooke Miller. Those are notable contestants. They pretty much defined their cycles (for some even more than the actual winners) or got quite a few acting gigs (Stolz and Jones). I'm not saying any contestant is notable, I'm saying those 7 are. If you asked for which non winners I think are notable I'd say them, Joanie Dodds, Kahlen Rondot, Natasha Galkina, Mel Rose, Eugena Washington Mercedes Scelba-Shorte, Elyse Sewell, and maybe April Wilkner, Bre Scullark, Cassandra Whitehead, Jade Cole and Camille McDonald. And that's about it so please don't twist what I'm saying. Siemgi 20:34 12 June 2008 (UTC)
        
        Siemgi, please check out the following criteria for inclusion:BIO (this is the standard that all articles about people must meet), entertainers (this is the basic standard of inclusion for models, and Bio1e (this standard covers people who are only notable for 1 event, such as appearing on ANTM). These articles fail to meet all three standards. They are, therefore, not suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia. As per wp:BIO1E they might merit mention in articles about their respective season of ANTM and they are certainly well suited for the ANTM dedicated wiki but they are not notable enough for articles of their own. L0b0t (talk) 22:22, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        From what I read, being part of several notable events makes you notable, right? Well D'Amato, Golden, Markley Stolz and Jones definitely fit that part, Strauss and Brower are still borderline to me. Kuzmich definitely fits the fandom part and the unique contribution part (bringing light on Asperger). And most of those I cited above meet criterium one. User:Siemgi 01:17 13 June 2008 (UTC)
        Perhaps you should read the links again, as they do not say that at all. They say:

A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of published secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent (Sources that are pure derivatives of an original source can be used as references, but do not contribute toward establishing the notability of a subject. "Intellectual independence" requires not only that the content of sources be non-identical, but also that the entirety of content in a published work not be derived from (or based in) another work (partial derivations are acceptable). For example, a speech by a politician about a particular person contributes toward establishing the notability of that person, but multiple reproductions of the transcript of that speech by different news outlets do not. A biography written about a person contributes toward establishing his or her notability, but a summary of that biography lacking an original intellectual contribution does not.) and independent of the subject. Autobiography and self-promotion are not the routes to having an encyclopaedia article. The barometer of notability is whether people independent of the subject itself have actually considered the subject notable enough that they have written and published non-trivial works that focus upon it. Thus, entries in biographical dictionaries that accept self-nominations (such as the Marquis Who's Who) do not prove notability.
If the depth of coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be needed to prove notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources may not be sufficient to establish notability. Non-triviality is a measure of the depth of content of a published work, and how far removed that content is from a simple directory entry or a mention in passing that does not discuss the subject in detail. A credible 200-page independent biography of a person that covers that person's life in detail is non-trivial, whereas a birth certificate or a 1-line listing on an election ballot form is not. Database sources such as Notable Names Database, Internet Movie Database and Internet Adult Film Database are not considered credible since they are, like wikis, mass-edited with little oversight. Additionally, these databases have low, wide-sweeping generic standards of inclusion.

Primary sources may be used to support content in an article, but they do not contribute toward proving the notability of a subject.

* The person has received a notable award or honor, or has been often nominated for them.
The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field. Generally, a person who is "part of the enduring historical record" will have been written about, in depth, independently in multiple history books on that field, by historians. A politician who has received "significant press coverage" has been written about, in depth, independently in multiple news feature articles, by journalists. An actor who has been featured in magazines has been written about, in depth, independently in multiple magazine feature articles, by magazine article writers. An actor or TV personality who has "an independent biography" has been written about, in depth, in a book, by an independent biographer.

Actors, comedians, opinion makers, models, and television personalities:
Has had significant roles or been featured multiple times in notable films, television, stage performances, and other productions.

Has a large fan base or a significant "cult" following.

Has made unique, prolific or innovative contributions to a field of entertainment.

Sorry for the long quote but I feel it is important to establish just what the criteria for inclusion are. The also-rans on a television game show just don't cut the mustard. L0b0t (talk) 01:48, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- Well to me the NY Times is independant, so is AOL, or Perez Hilton. And as I said, they all have been on various Tv programs:

Golden: ANTM, The TYra Show, Rip the Runway, Project Runway Markley; ANTM, Project Runway, Made of Honor Stolz: Lots of MTV stuff, ANTM, The Tyra Show Jones: All of Us, Girlfriend, BET stuff, Celebrity Fit Club, ANTM or had significant following: Kuzmich: again the NY Times, 9 CoverGirl of the Week titles As someone said, they need to be rewritten, not deleted. Siemgi 14:49 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Keep all some probably are notable others maybe not, but this bundled AfD isn't the way to go. Try relisting individually. RMHED (talk) 20:59, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.