The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Stifle (talk) 10:35, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Camp Wekeela

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Non-notable summer camp. Of the references provided, only one (the BusinessWeek article) mentions this camp at all, and that only in passing as an example of the point being made, not as the main thrust of the article. Spammy text could be addressed, but lack of notability cannot. All ghits are promotional in nature. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 14:08, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What do you suggest I do to improve the article? It is for a class project. The other references are from newspapers how are they not valid references? (Axs912 (talk) 14:26, 25 October 2010 (UTC))[reply]

In addition, there are other articles about summer camps that don't even have references. I have references. I am committed to making this right and appreciate any help (Axs912 (talk) 14:31, 25 October 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Comment You raise several points; I'll address them one at a time.

The other references are from newspapers. How are they not valid references? The other references do not mention Camp Wekeela at all. They are about summer camps in general, but not about Camp Wekeela.
In addition, there are other articles about summer camps that don't even have references. Please refer to WP:Other stuff exists -- the presence of other bad articles on Wikipedia is never an excuse to add another.
It is for a class project. I recommend that you and your teacher review the guidelines at WP:School and university projects. While Wikipedia can be a great teaching tool, the content still has to meet Wikipedia guidelines.
What do you suggest I do to improve the article? Find reliable sources that actually discuss this camp, with significant coverage. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 15:23, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

~~Weak~~ Strong keep based on sources. ADD: And certainly userfy would be a backup much preferable to deletion due to WP:BITE. Axs912, the best approach is to take info found in several of the reliable magazines and books at that link and bring it into the article. You get a week from the nomination date of today, and you will probably get a "keep" result if you do the job right. Read as much WP policy as you can stand. Best wishes. JJB 15:38, 25 October 2010 (UTC) Changing to strong because North Jersey's article is from The Record (Bergen County), and the inter-camp article by Northstar Pubs is also about the camp operator, and that is a minimum satisfaction of WP:GNG, while the many other sources discussed indicate that the minimum can easily be built on. A couple newbie mistakes can be easily enfolded; tone is already much less promotional than many AFD candidates. JJB 18:46, 26 October 2010 (UTC) Additional reliables are BusinessWeek 2001, a Japanese journal 2002, and the ACA (primary). JJB 19:50, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

What link are you referring to John? — Axs912 — continues after insertion below

The word "sources", which is the Google Books link. Lots of WP links are inline. JJB 18:34, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Dan - if you take a closer look at the college weekend college days article Wekeela is mentioned.

I really appreciate your critique and advice. (Axs912 (talk) 15:42, 25 October 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Comment The sources mentioned by JJB are merely listings of job opportunities. These types of business directories do not confer notability. And to Axs, the "mention" of Camp Wekeela at ZMags only refers to the fact that the article's author happens to be affiliated with Camp Wekeela. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 15:48, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And what about the businessman of the year award? That doesn't talk about the Camp? Northjersey.com is not a reliable source? (Axs912 (talk) 15:53, 25 October 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Comment There is nothing in the article or in the NorthJersey.com reference to indicate a "Businessman of the Year" award has been won by anyone associated with Camp Wekeela. The NorthJersey.com reference has been corrected since the article was originally posted to indicate that the interview is with the current owner of Camp Wekeela. I still don't know that this consitutes significant coverage for the camp. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 16:10, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep I did not mean award pardon my mistake. The article clearly talks about the camp. It talks about the owner of the camp. This article is significant coverage. It uses Camp Wekeela as an example of camps being out there and people living their lives by running a camp. Its educational. The world is in need of jobs, this article exemplifies how this man uses a camp, Camp Wekeela to provide for his family and community and several families in the world. (Axs912 (talk) 16:15, 25 October 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Delete It's a camp. The article strikes me as at least mildly promotional and a bit like a brochure. So it provides a man and some families with jobs? So do several carwashes I know, not to mention computer shops, takeaways and so on. On a side track, I was pleased to learn from the article that Europe is in the world. I was beginning to worry about where we were. I will admit that here we don't have the culture of commercial camps that the USA seems to have. Kids go camping with Cubs, Scouts or Guides (or in the case of my younger relations, with me...). Peridon (talk) 18:59, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thinking on and looking at the history of the article, hasn't this already been deleted once at least? I'm sure I've read this article before but it was only posted today. Peridon (talk) 19:02, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why the negativity? This article has never been posted before. How about some advice on how to improve it and make it better? (Axs912 (talk) 19:26, 25 October 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Comment If I had thought the article could be improved, I would not have nominated it for deletion. The problem is not that I think the article is bad, but that the subject does not merit inclusion in the first place. This AFD process is not a critique of the quality of the article; rather it is a discussion of the notability of the subject. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 19:36, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: of the first 13 AFDs when searching "camp notability", there are 7 keeps 4 deletes 1 merge 1 redirect; Keeps are Camp Pioneer, C Tuckahoe, C Ozark, C Ramah (2nd nomination), Resica Falls Scout Reservation, C Miriam (2nd nomination), Treasure Island Scout Reservation. That's not a keep argument, but an indicator of general consensus that IF the WP:GNG is met according to a plurality (not necessarily majority), the article should then be kept, whether or not the sources make it into the article immediately. Turning to the GNG, while it is true that the 38 book sources I linked are largely advertising, the fact that there are also significant-coverage sources in that set and in the article (without looking at all links to pick out which), and the fact that they are industry guides and thus good for establishing notability en masse (I think the camp goes back to 1946), should get us over the hump, along with the need to WP:WELCOME new editors. I'm also not clear on Dan's large number of contributions to this discussion. Also, Axs912, it is perfectly appropriate to add the bold word "keep" (code is '''keep''' with 3-apostrophe delimiters) to your first comment above to preserve your position. JJB 18:34, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Maine-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 03:00, 28 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 03:01, 28 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, or incubate Keep if the article meets basic guidelines, incubate if it doesn't. I dream of horses (T) @ 20:01, 28 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The closer should note that Axs912 said at his talk today, "It seems now when I click on two of my references that I can no longer access the information it had about Camp wekeela." Personally, I think it's good enough to pass even if two links go dead. JJB 23:33, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.