The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 02:28, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Chinese Music Society of North America[edit]

Chinese Music Society of North America (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Fails WP:GNG. I cannot find sources establishing notability. Website appears to be down, and I cannot find record of the supposedly quarterly, peer-reviewed journal it publishes. (Searched in English and Chinese.) WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 21:33, 8 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 21:33, 8 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 21:33, 8 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 21:33, 8 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of China-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 22:29, 8 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Illinois-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 22:30, 8 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
  1. Li, Yuanyuan (July 1983). "Ting na guo yue: Listen to that national music (an introduction to the promotional work done by the Chinese Music Society of North America)". Mingpao Monthly [zh] (in Chinese). Vol. 18, no. 7. Media Chinese International. pp. 37–38. EBSCOhost A427656.

     The English-language abstract notes: "Since the establishment of the Chinese Music Society of North America, the international organization as well as the regional chapters have used various means to expand the contact of the general public with Chinese music and to increase their ability to understand it. The author discusses the research sponsored by the society and the journal Chinese music, first published in 1978."

  2. Jeffcoat, Kyle (2009). "Contesting the Modern Ethnic Orchestra on Transnational Terrains: Comparing Two Chinese Orchestras in Post-WWII America". American Association for Chinese Studies 51st Annual Conference Program. American Association for Chinese Studies. City University of New York. Archived from the original on 2022-02-14. Retrieved 2022-02-14.

     This is a conference paper for the 2009 conference. According to this 2018 article in the American Journal of Chinese Studies, "Peter C.Y. Chow moved the Secretariat to the City University of New York where he has now served as the association's first Executive Director for twenty years." The conference paper provides a lengthy and critical analysis of the association's history:

     The Chinese Music Society of North America (CMSNA) was initially organized in 1969 as the Chinese Musician’s International Network (CMIN) which grew into an international organization and changed its name to Chinese Music Society of North America in 1976 after registering with the federal government as a non-profit organization. During that same year the group formed the Chinese Classical Orchestra with initially only a dozen members. In a pamphlet mailed out to various institutions across the United States in 1981, the CMSNA announced that it would sponsor a free presentation featuring Mao Yuan as a guest speaker and that from 1976 to 1978 the orchestra annually performed Mao Yuan’s “Dance of Yao” (瑤族舞曲), most likely the 1954 Peng Xiuwen (彭修文) arrangement for modern Chinese orchestra.

     The CMSNA began publishing their official international journal Chinese Music in 1978. Nearly all of the cited sources in this journal come from their own publications and the majority of them are authored by the Shen Sin-yan, who is also the main editor of the publication and one of the main co-founders of CMSNA. The chauvinism of CMSNA is quite evident in many respects, but the following sentence efficaciously sums up their excessive boasting: “From coast to coast, from continent to continent, the critic’s choice for the last three decades, the Chinese Music Society of North America has produced the most culturally and artistically stimulating musical experience in Chinese Music globally.” In 2005, Xiao Jun made a similar declaration of superiority, however, going a step further by providing a precise location: “In the beginning of the 1970’s, Chicago became the center of Chinese music internationally.” In 1978, the group recognized itself as “one of the best Chinese orchestras in the US,” but not as the best or the center of all Chinese music in the entire world, therefore we can see how such boastings were not formed until later in the group’s history. It is important to notice how they implicitly admitted that other respectable Chinese orchestras in the US at that time existed because never again was such recognition seen in print after the late 1970s.

  3. Annual Report. National Endowment for the Arts. 2000. pp. 52–53. Retrieved 2022-02-14 – via Google Books.

     According to commons:Template:PD-USGov-NEA, works from the National Endowment for the Arts are in the public domain since it is a work of the U.S. federal government.

     The report notes: "The Chinese Music Society of North America in Naperville, Illinois was organized in 1969 to increase the knowledge of Chinese music and performing arts, and became a nonprofit organization in 1976. The Society often works through performances by the Chinese Classical Orchestra, led by Dr. Shen Sin-yan, an authority on Chinese music. Today, the Society membership numbers more than 1,800 musicians and music lovers. In performance and on recordings, the Chinese Classical Orchestra has internationalized Chinese music over the last two decades, making it more accessible to the general public. In FY 2004, the Society received an NEA Challenge America grant of $10,000 to support the 2004–2005 season gala concert of the Chinese Classical Orchestra. The gala concert was held on November 6, 2004 in the International House Auditorium of Chicago. The orchestra uses traditional Chinese instruments such as the bawu, a free-reeded bamboo flute; the yangqin, a grand dulcimer; the erhu, a vertical python-skin fiddle; and the pipa, a grand lute. The program included traditional Chinese folk music, a Peking Opera medley, and works by contemporary Chinese composers. Compositions performed included Moon over the Mountain Pass, military music from the Tang Dynasty; The Flower Sobs by 20th-century Suzhou Pingtan ballad singer Xu Lixian; and Yan Tieming's Fishing Song featuring the haunting sound of the bawu. The concert drew a predominantly Asian-American audience from the Chicago metropolitan area, northern Indiana, and Milwaukee and Madison, Wisconsin."

  4. "'Chinese Music; official publication of the Chinese Music Society of North America". 1810 Overture. 9. Northwestern University: 4. 1980. Retrieved 2022-02-14 – via Google Books.

     The article notes: "Chinese Music; official publication of the Chinese Music Society of North America. Vol. 2-, No. 2-, June 1979- (Our holdings of this newly entitled journal are complete, from the first issue.) This quarterly journal supersedes the Chinese Music General Newsletter, also the Chinese Music Society of North America's official organ. The society itself is based in Woodridge, Illinois and represents a much larger concern than publishing the journal which is to serve as a "forerunner in research and promotion of Chinese music." First, the organization maintains a functional traditional Chinese orchestra and offers many lecture-demonstrations on the music of the Chinese with the orchestra. Second, it published cassette recordings of Chinese music. Articles in the periodical are generally on Chinese composers, genre, instruments, and theoretical principles -- with all transliterations via the Pinyin system. Music Index issues to cover this journal are not available yet."

     Here is more information about 1810 Overture:

     • Campana, Deborah (March 1991). "Information Flow: Written Communication among Music Librarians". Notes. 47 (3). Music Library Association: 692. ISSN 0027-4380. JSTOR 941855.

       The journal notes: "Among the more notable music library newsletters are: ... NU Quarter Notes (formerly, 1810 Overture; Northwestern Unviersity; 1972– ); ... Although such publications are produced for the benefit of local users, there is what might be described as a meta-audience of librarians at other institutions who subscribe to these newsletters to keep apprised of their sister institutions."

  5. Stone, Ruth M. (2017). The Garland Encyclopedia of World Music: The United States and Canada. Vol. 3. London: Routledge. p. 953. ISBN 978-1-351-54414-6. Retrieved 2022-02-14 – via Google Books.

     The book provides one sentence of coverage about the subject. The book notes: "In Chicago, the Chinese Music Society of North America publishes a semischolarly magazine, Chinese Music, and provides performances by a modern-style Chinese orchestra staffed by a mixture of Chinese and non-Chinese musicians."

  6. Coverage of the journal:
     1. Knysak, Benjamin (June 2018). "Musical Information in a New Land: Immigrant Music Periodicals in the United States Part Two: 1931–2000". Notes. 74 (4). Music Library Association: 561. ISSN 0027-4380. JSTOR 26781920.

        The article notes: "Chinese Music General Newsletter; from 1979: Chinese Music. Woodridge, IL, 1977–2010. Grove US1089. 33 vols., quarterly. English (Chinese). Widely held. Published in English by the Chinese Music Society of North America, this journal aims to disseminate information on Chinese music to an audience broader than the Chinese migr population alone. The journal published research articles on Chinese instruments, musical styles and genres, compositions; musical news from China and of Chinese musicians in China and abroad; and reviews of books and recordings."

     2. Post, Jennifer C. (2004). Ethnomusicology: A Research and Information Guide. New York: Routledge. p. 87. ISBN 0-415-93834-1. Retrieved 2022-02-14 – via Google Books.

        The book notes: "336. Chinese Music. 1978-. Chinese Music Society of North America. Woodridge, 111.: Chinese Music Society of North America. Quarterly. ISSN: 01923749. An international refereed journal published quarterly by the Chinese Music Society of North American and devoted to the study of the music and acoustics of China, and their relationship to those of other regions of the world. Includes articles, news, and book and recording reviews. Table of content and abstracts: http://chinesemusic.net/CM_Journal.html."

     3. 杨宇 (1981). "北美洲中国音乐研究会编辑出版《中国音乐》" [The Chinese Music Society of North America edited and published "Chinese Music"] (in Chinese). Archived from the original on 2022-02-14. Retrieved 2022-02-14 – via CNKI.

        The article notes: "Chinese Music, edited and published by the Chinese Music Society of North America, is an international academic quarterly journal on Chinese music, published in March, June, September and December every year. The purpose of the journal is: to introduce and disseminate Chinese music to the world, and to promote people's correct understanding and understanding of this excellent music culture system. The content of the publication involves; music theory, compositions, acoustic studies, classical music, local music, opera, musical instruments, musicians, news reports."

  There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow the Chinese Music Society of North America (simplified Chinese: 北美洲中国音乐研究会; traditional Chinese: 北美洲中國音樂研究會) to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".

  Cunard (talk) 10:05, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per GNG – Thanks to Cunard for finding new references. There is now no justification whatsoever for this article to be deleted. VocalIndia (talk) 09:17, 15 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: For the opportunity to discuss Cunard's sources.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Star Mississippi 01:43, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment on sourcing from @Cunard. I appreciate their effort and am genuinely interested in the minutiae of notability here (clearly, I need to go outside more). I was rather surprised by the volume of sources at first glance given the WP:BEFORE I did, but I would argue that further examination suggests that several of these are inadequate to support GNG.
  • N 1 fails WP:INDEPENDENT: Yuan-yuan Lee is an officer of the CMNSA, see e.g. here, where she is listed as a contact.
  • Y 2 qualifies as reliable, independent, and significant coverage. It also decidedly weighs against considering Chinese Music as a reliable or independent source in itself, raising further questions on how we are to evaluate its inclusion in some libraries' catalogs when it comes to notability.
  • ? 3 — I am personally very hesitant to describe a 2004 grant description as qualifying. A few things to consider (n.b. Google apparently combined NEA's annual reports from 2000 to 2004 into a single file; the CMSNA grant is from 2004, not 2000):
    • Is it significant? The first paragraph is a description of the organization; the remaining two describe the $10,000 grant's application to a single concert given in November 2004.
    • Given that the grantor-grantee relationship is inherently financial, do we consider this truly independent coverage? The NEA presumably takes the provided information from an applicant itself and evaluates based on provided materials. How does that square with the requirement that "Independent content, in order to count towards establishing notability, must include original and independent opinion, analysis, investigation, and fact checking that are clearly attributable to a source unaffiliated to the subject"?
  • N 4, based on the snippet visible in Google Books and the explanatory article talking about the source itself, fails SIGCOV. As Campana's article notes, 1810 Overture is a library newsletter, which tend to "provide local clientele with... guides to using specific collections. Many also serve as bibliographic instruction tools, reporting on reference materials and other new acquisitions..." — in other words, barring evidence to suggest the snippet we can see is more substantive, it looks to simply be a paragraph describing the journal's addition to the library catalog. A library's acquisition of a journal does not make it notable, and the only reason we see these sources is precisely because the journal is functionally never mentioned anywhere else or cited in related academic research.
  • N 5 is trivial coverage. WP:ORGDEPTH specifically excludes "listings and mentions not accompanied by commentary, survey, study, discussion, analysis, or evaluation of the product, company, or organization." If the Garland Encyclopedia had provided something like an "entry giving an overview of the history of an organization" that would qualify.
  • ? 6. Specifically, N for sub-sources 1 & 2 — these merely describe the journal's presence in library catalogs with a basic description of content. ? re: Sub-source 3, which lacks relevant citation data such as the place of publication; further digging suggests it was in a magazine called 乐器. Note that the only other listing I could find for the article, also from CNKI, gives the download as a single page; I suspect this is similarly a mere description of the journal without substantive coverage, but I cannot access CNKI with my non-mainland Chinese account (this, accordingly, represents a verifiability issue, one of the many frustrating aspects of CNKI).

At best, it seems, we are left with one conference paper that does examine the group in significant detail, a paragraph from a 1981 magazine in China that gives a short description of its journal, and a paragraph from the NEA describing a 2004 grant to the organization (the other two paragraphs detailing the grant itself and a concert put on). Given this, I am having trouble envisioning what sort of article this could even look like. WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 23:42, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Thank you for reviewing the sources. I have stricken the Yuan-yuan Lee source. I think the other sources contribute to notability. The National Endowment for the Arts needed to evaluate the Chinese Music Society of North America's request for funding so they conducted research and analysis into the group so I view their coverage as independent. I have provided one more source below. Cunard (talk) 01:40, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: Here is another source about the subject:

  杜庆云 (February 1992). "让世界更好地了解中国也让中国更好地了解世界——记"中国音乐对二十一世纪音乐的影响"国际研讨会" [Let the world better understand China and let China better understand the world——The International Symposium on "The Influence of Chinese Music on Music in the 21st Century"]. People's Music [zh] (in Chinese). Chinese Musicians' Association. pp. 32–33. ISSN 0447-6573. Archived from the original on 2022-02-21. Retrieved 2022-02-21 – via CNKI.

chinese text causing side scroll
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The article notes: "当值“北美洲中国音乐研究会”成立十五周年之际，由“北美洲中国音乐研究会”和“美国大学音乐学会”等六个美国音乐学会共同举办的以“中国音乐对二十一世纪音乐的影响”为主题的中国音乐国际研讨会，于年月日至日在美国芝加哥隆重召开。来自世界五大洲的八百多名音乐家聚集于芝加哥古老而豪华的帕尔莫大酒店，就“中国音乐对二十一世纪音乐的影响”进行研讨和学术交流 ... 配合填补研究中的空白的讨论，北美洲中国音乐研究会出版了《中国音乐及管弦乐法—原则与实践》一书。对广义和声学与中国音乐及管弦乐法的关系作了深入浅出的讨论‘并从音响学的角度帮助现代作曲家了解中国音乐。此书在会议期间一售而空。它的内容方法与观念都很新颖。 ... 北美洲中国音乐研究会年正式成立后，在其特定的历史及政治背景下对中国音乐的介绍和研究在美国及世界许多国家已经产生了深远的影响。同时，这个组织卓有成效的工作已使它获得美国联邦政府及所在的伊利诺斯州政府的财政支持和法律地位的认可，目前它已成为在美国联邦政府注册的世界性非牟利机构，它拥有向世界各国发行的英文季刊 (Chinese music) (ISSN 0192–3749)，作为研究结果及全世界中国音乐活动的发表园地。同时它还拥有自己的民族管弦乐团，并于年又成立了“北美洲中国音乐研究会丝竹乐团”。

From Google Translate:

On the occasion of the 15th anniversary of the founding of the "Chinese Music Society of North America", six American music societies including the "Chinese Music Society of North America" and the "American University Music Society" jointly organized the "Chinese Music to Twenty-One" The International Symposium on Chinese Music with the theme of "The Influence of Century Music" was held in Chicago, the United States. More than 800 musicians from five continents gathered in the ancient and luxurious Palmer Hotel in Chicago to conduct seminars and academic exchanges on "The Influence of Chinese Music on Music in the 21st Century"

...

In conjunction with the discussion of filling in the gaps in the research, the Chinese Music Society of North America published the book "Chinese Music and Orchestral Music - Principles and Practice". The relationship between generalized harmony and Chinese music and orchestral method is discussed in a simple way, and helps modern composers understand Chinese music from the perspective of acoustics. The book sold out during the conference. Its content methods and concepts are novel.

...

After the official establishment of the Chinese Music Society of North America, the introduction and research of Chinese music under its specific historical and political background has had a profound impact in the United States and many countries in the world. At the same time, the fruitful work of this organization has enabled it to obtain the financial support and legal status of the US federal government and the Illinois state government where it is located. At present, it has become a worldwide non-profit organization registered with the US federal government. The English-language quarterly (Chinese music) (ISSN 0192–3749) published by countries around the world serves as a place for the publication of research results and Chinese music events around the world. At the same time, it also has its own national orchestra, and in 2008 established the "Chinese Music Society of North America Sizhu Orchestra".

Cunard (talk) 01:40, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Thank you for your efforts. This source is much more substantive. I still believe the NEA and library catalog/newsletter issues are insufficient, but I leave it to others willing to go through our walls of text above to see if they agree and/or consider the above source + source number 2 in your list sufficient for GNG regardless. Cheers! WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 03:06, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment on hatted text: it was causing a side scroll and as I imagine the english-language translation is what's more helpful for participants here, I've hidden the original. Please revert or edit if there's another way to solve @Cunard:. Star Mississippi 15:37, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 02:48, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment There's a rather substantive thesis by K Jeffcoat in GScholar, three pages in. I think with the other sources above, it's notable. Oaktree b (talk) 15:40, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Note: This is the same as source 2 described above, I believe. WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 20:31, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.