The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete all. Proto::type 08:46, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Deadmines[edit]

Apparently every "instance" in World of Warcraft has its own article. Each one of these is written as gameguide complete with helpful information such as which weapons are "must have" and which is a "popular twink weapon" and which monsters "drop some very sweet loot for your raid" (Onyxia's Lair). These articles have no references and can be deleted as unencyclopedic as well. Wikipedia is not a game-guide. Also nominating:

Wickethewok 12:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • These are instances in WoW - that is analogous to having articles for each level of Super Mario Bros. 3. Having an article on something is not precedent for keeping another - perhaps if it was nominated for an AFD and voted to keep, then maybe. Wickethewok 16:04, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    The term 'instance' means nothing to me, sorry. Not a Warcraft player. I see both groups of articles as essentially articles on game locations/maps/whatever. Delete the whole lot, or keep the whole lot. There is no need for haphazard application of standards. See also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Counter-Strike maps for a recent related AfD discussion. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 16:11, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Please note that the CS maps AfD discussion page specifically warns that that discussion is not to be referred to as precedent in future decisions. -- Super Aardvark 16:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    I am well aware of that warning, and haven't cited that AfD as precedent. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 16:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Instance essentially means "level" or whatever. As for the application of standards, I don't know of any other way to go through this other than on a case-to-case basis. If you have any ideas on a broader application of standards, I'd love hear them. A single AFD for all maps/levels/instances listed on Wikipedia would be a massive and confusing ordeal imo. Drop me a message if you have any ideas on such things unless they're specifically related to this AFD. Wickethewok 16:19, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    If I cared enough about it, I would propose purging all game map articles from WP wholesale. But, being not a gamer myself, I can't mount a vigorous defence of that position, so I haven't suggested it. If you do the honours I will chime up in support. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 16:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why not have an article for each level of SMB3, in principle? In practice, I don't think there's enough to say about each of those to warrant an article, but there's plenty to say about these areas of WoW (lore, individual NPCs, impact on the game as a whole, etc.) -- Super Aardvark 16:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just because there is information on such things does not make them encyclopedic (not an indescriminate collection of information). Wickethewok 16:19, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quick comment here, a better analogy than having articles for each level of SMB3 would be having articles for each boss of SMB3. I know it seems like I'm nitpicking, but I just think it's important to clarify this for the non-WoW players. An instance is more of a special area where the major bosses of WoW are encountered. Sorry to be anal, but, well, I'm anal... --Polkapunk
  • I am not stating whether these are notable or not. My reasons for deletion are given above, you may address those if you wish. Things can be of interest to a large community but still be unencyclopedic, such as recipes, game guides, and such. Those things are "all notable to the substantial number of people", but are certainly not encyclopedic. The main purposes of these articles seems to be to provide information on "bosses", what items they drop, level recommendations, listing mission objectives, etc, which definitely falls under a game-guide, which WP is specifically not. Several of them even have "Strategy" sections, which is quite blatantly unencyclopedic. Wickethewok 16:19, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I should have placed my argument for notability as a response to the first Delete vote; sorry. After reviewing a majority of the articles in greater detail, I agree that their main purpose as they now stand is to be a game guide. However, most have some background story-line information that should be merged with another article or should be expanded to warrant its own article. Game guide material (essentially the Instance section of each article) should be removed. -- Super Aardvark 17:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • How are they referenced? Wikis can't be used as reliable sources of information, so WoWWiki is not any sort of reference. Wickethewok 17:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • See above for my refutation of the "not notable" argument. Do you have a counter argument? Do you agree with the grounds stated by the nominator? -- Super Aardvark 17:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Correction: half are such redirects (to Caverns of Time), half should be made redirects to Outland (Warcraft). -- Super Aardvark 17:38, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article specifically, though of course the redirects as well. I removed the redundant article listings above. How does my reason for deletion not hold? Material that is unencyclopedic can most certainly be deleted. I have elaborated on these reasons including original research, WP:NOT a gameguide/how-to, and unencyclopedic in general. Wickethewok 17:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • By "unencyclopedic in general" I imagine you're referring to Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. I don't see how Caverns of Time falls under any of the stated categories of articles for which concensus has been established, and I argue that it is encyclopedic. It explains what this new, in-development feature of the game is, how to access it, and the lore behind each aspect. The article will continue to evolve as more information is made available, but it doesn't contain any speculation. -- Super Aardvark 19:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Noted. Here's my opinion on that: Assuming good faith re this person's frequent use of Wikipedia, you now have the opinion of a member of your target audience. This should count at least as much as a seasoned Wikipedian who may have no interest in video games. -- Super Aardvark 03:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note - the above user changed my comments on this AFD intentionally (I have reverted them). If you do so again, I will not hesitate to recommend you be blocked. Wickethewok 20:02, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note - my apologies, I was unaware of, and have since become aware of, the policies on the AFD. I will, however, state that it is painfully obvious that the above user is biased towards his own deletion recommendations (due to the way in which he defended this AFD entry) and may also be biased against World of Warcraft for some unknown reason (as he has contributed to at least one other game entry in Wikipedia that could be construed as a "game guide", that game being Halo). Seansquared
  • Note - also, please don't attempt to threaten me or any user with such phrases as "Don't do it again". You do not own Wikipedia, you are merely a contributor like everyone else. Furthermore I have suddenly received a huge influx of spam on my gmail account for no reason; I can only assume that you have contributed to this and as such have reported you to both Wikipedia and Google for possible service violations. Seansquared 16:42, 19 July 2006
  • Note - Adding to my original recommendation of Strong Keep I would like to say that World of Warcraft is very notable (6.5M+ players worldwide), has a rich lore and history, etc. Again I recommend that the above articles be edited, not removed, to better fit with Wikipedia's standards. I would not, however, merge the entries, as that unified page could possibly contain hundreds of pages worth of scrolling. Seansquared 16:47, 19 July 2006
  • I enjoy being accused of being biased towards my own recommendations. I cannot deny that - my opinions are indeed biased by my opinions. I assure you I don't have anything against WoW. Also, I'm glad to see you signed up for an account. I hope this AFD does not deter you from making future contributions to Wikipedia. I apologize if I was a little rough with my "Do not do it again" comment. Wickethewok 20:54, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • That line is from Onyxia's Lair. Wickethewok 21:08, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Your primary argument seems to be that these articles deserve to be included in WP merely because WP is "big" and has articles on a "great many subjects". However, WP aims to be a encyclopedia, which is not necessarily the same as being big and having many articles. The argument for inclusion of an article must involve the properties of the article itself, rather than the properties of WP. As far as opinions go, I disagree with the expectation that one should find detailed articles on game maps in a general encyclopedia. I have no objection to pointing interested people to more specialised resources out there (which can be wiki-based even!), but we don't ourselves have to be such a resource. However, I would recommend people who have strong opinions on this matter (i.e., people who have voted strongly for or against in this AfD) to try and draw up some notability criteria for video game information. In this instance a little bit of instruction creep is preferable to a deluge of AfDs if it will establish clear consensus standards. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 22:01, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Indeed, I'd like to help out with that. It seems to be one of the more debated items on AFD as of late, so it'd be nice to establish some guidelines which would help streamline future AFDs on video game material. I'll try to start thinking of some general guidelines - feel free to message me if anyone here is interested as well (regardless of which way you voted of course). Wickethewok 22:07, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment:if anyone giving their opinion about move/delete this info played WOW, they would realize that ALL info on the pages are so sumarized that can only be used for lore/information needs. nobody kill a mob in a dungeaon by reading wikipedia stuff. its just silly to base your arguments on "game guides" maybe wikipedia is not a place for game info huh?--Santosusaf 10:37, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Assuming you're addressing me (if you're not, ignore me ;) ), I love Blizzard. Played D2, SC, WC2 for a loooong time. Wickethewok 16:03, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well you did post the AfB and so the majority of comments must be directed at you, eh? Poking aside, I've begun editing some of the articles for clarity and removing the "guide" information. I will update with lore and non-guide information (to maintain a level of "encyclopedic-worthy content. I would request a minimum period of 5 to 10 weeks to thoroughly update and modify the above noted articles so as to avoid their deletion. I do believe that World of Warcraft, it's lore and fantasy, and all non-guide information related to it, certainly meets or exceeds any notoriety standards that Wikipedia holds itself to, and that the articles are merely under scrutiny due to the excessive (though not IMO) amount of "guide" content. I hope to rectify this as soon as humanly possible. Note that I am not the original contributor nor editor. Seansquared 12:08, 20 July 2006
  • You, like many other new users posting here, should really learn some basic Wikipedia policies before posting comments here. You have come here in search of unencyclopedic content. Until that picture in the upper left hand corner says "Wikipedia: The Free Place-to-Add-Whatever-You-Like", this is still an encyclopedia, regardless of what you would prefer it to be. Though this may not be your point exactly, the argument alone for keeping this information because it does not exist elsewhere should ring warning bells of original research and lack of verifiability. Wickethewok 04:50, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: You may want to also check out Wickethewok's user page and note that several of his articles, particularly those on widely unheard of electronic music creators, fail to live up to WP:NOT standards. It's a nice double-standard that he follows. Seansquared 12:32, 24 July 2006
  • Which articles are you referring to specifically? I'd be more than happy to fix them. Though, I'd like to point out this is not necessarily relevant to this AFD. Also, what part of WP:NOT are you saying they violate? I'm not sure what part of WP:NOT you could apply to a musician/producer. Wickethewok 16:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Hmm, nothing really jumped out at me on Wickethewok's page as WP:VSCA or WP:NOT. But, since WP is a collaborative effort, keep in mind that WP:DEL can be used by any editor, yourself included, to help improve WP. -- MrDolomite | Talk 02:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Impressive! Most new editors usually make it to at least double digit edits before comparing other editors to Nazis. While I understand how you can feel frustrated, its usually not in your best interest to appear uncivil. I hope this doesn't discourage you from contributing verifiable information to Wikipedia in the future. Wickethewok 01:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Clearly you are passionate about the AfD discussion, daflipman. Please remember to Wikipedia:Assume good faith and not to jump to conclusions about other contributors' possible motivations. Having that kind of discussion quickly moves away from Wikipedia:Civility and Wikipedia:No personal attacks, detracts from the original point, which is discussing the possible deletion of the article. Thanks for participating. -- MrDolomite | Talk 01:41, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I can't speak for everyone, but I have not said I "don't like it." I do feel, that while it shouldn't be "here" (as in wikipedia), it is definitely worthy of being "there" (as in another gaming wiki). Personal POV about WP content: if WP becomes a majority of articles about new bands, non-notable school, StarTrek, computer games and weaselly company ad-spam, then people will go elsewhere. All those things can be online, and maybe one solution is to have WP become the #REDIRECT jumping off point to other topic's wikis. -- MrDolomite | Talk 01:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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