The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Of the arguments to "keep", Martintg's fails to address this article, Suva uses the WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS argument, Alexia Death says "it's okay because it's young", Sander Sade makes a good argument, Digurwen is too busy attacking the nominator to say why it should be kept, Piotr's is just awful, Edson has a good argujment, "seems like a real phenomenon" (JIP) isn't persuasive, Darwinek says keep per Suva and accuses people of bad faith, then a run of "keep per aboves" which add nothing to the discussion, and nothing else really adding anything other than weight of numbers. Unfrotunately, weight of numbers is insufficient; the arguments for deletion (WP:NOR/WP:SYNTH, neologism, the fact Russian-Estonian relations already exists) are far more persusuive and rooted in actual Wikipedia policy. So, delete. Neil ╦ 07:32, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Estophobia[edit]

Estophobia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Original essay, a collection of arbitrary facts from newspapers to prove the existence of a particular prejudice. We have already had Anti-Hellenism (deleted), Anti-Bosniak sentiment(deleted), recreated Bosniakophobia (and deleted again), Anti-Hungarian sentiment(deleted), etc. compiled in exact same way. `'Miikka 00:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Somehow you fail to mention it has Google Scholar hits [2], which are far more important then Google Books hits. Sander Säde 05:44, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Google scholar gives one paper mirrored in two locations which judging from the title "Citizenship and borders: Legacies of Soviet empire in Estonia" is not primarily about the topic of "Estophobia". Compare this to prejudices like Anti-Japanese sentiment [3] or [4] Islamophobia which have whole books written about them. cab 08:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Japan and Islam generally represents a much, much larger field of research that is more likely to yeild specific books on their respective phobias, however that does not make anti-Estonian sentiment any less real. In fact there is a book published that cites "Baltophobia" (hatred of both Latvians and Estonians by their colonial masters) as an age old phenomenon [5]. Martintg 12:32, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please state the POV being pushed, so it can be dealt with. Digwuren 11:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A fair request. I find the following statements in the article being POV-pushing, as long as there's no reference given for the statements:
  1. accusations, most of them baseless
  2. for reasons such as a desire for sensationalism
  3. false rumours
  4. about the rumours, some of them traceable to the Night Watch pressure group
Also, I find the paragraph ...a poll conducted in April 2007, has found that 59% of Russia's residents agree with the statement "Estonian authorities discriminate against Russophones in Estonia and deliberately provoke conflicts with Russia". irrelevant in the article Estophobia. Condemning actions by governments of other countries doesn't qualify as a phobia. --BeautifulFlying 16:58, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I shall deal with the first two. The exact manner is yet uncertain; if I won't find suitable sources within a reasonable timeframe, I'll just take them out. The second one, in particular, comes from Chomsky's theory of institutional media bias, and it might indeed be that nobody notable has yet made the connection between that and Russian media. The third one is a factual claim: the rumours presented are indeed factually false. The fourth can be backed up with news reports and news analyses from recent months. Consequently, I do not see WP:POV in them, and if you disagree with their factuality, or at least that they can be treated as issues of fact, I ask that you elaborate.
Wtih all my respect to Chomsky, if you link whatever he said in his research with the articles in today's Russian press to come to a conclusion that the Russian press acts with a desire of sensationalism, this will qualify as a classic WP:SYN (which is usually utilized to advance someone's position, = POV). Regarding the 3 and 4, if the rumours are proved to be rumours and false ones, and if the rumours are proved to be tracable to such and such groups, then references to prooves must be present in an encyclopedic article. That's all I'm asking for. --BeautifulFlying 19:10, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Also, regarding the rumours - Wikipedia should not be a collection of rumours, but if the fact of such and such rumours circulation is important, a reference is needed that explains why these rumours are notable to be included in the article. --BeautifulFlying 20:10, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Your fifth claim is more interesting. I would tend to disagree, but this would probably grow into a longer discussion better suited for Talk:Estophobia than for this AFD here. As of now, the reference is in the section Estophobia#Accusations of discrimination of minorities and as such, illustrates such accusations' effectiveness and wide field of acceptance; however, if you insist, I can move the reference to the talk page until the discussion is held. Digwuren 18:48, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that this (afd) page is not the right place for this discussion. Let's move this over to the article talk page. --BeautifulFlying 19:10, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • All of the first 22 sources refer to the phenomenon, and most mention a concerted campaign. Anyway, what kind of reference do you believe would satisfy your concerns? I could try and find one. Digwuren 11:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's more the latter than the former. RJ CG, a well-known Estophobe, attacked the page yesterday -- hours after its creation -- and claimed that the concept doesn't exist. Thus, I made a selection of more than 10,000 articles, found by a few Google runs, on a diversity basis, and attached some of these sources to the lead. (See also Talk:Estophobia#Fact? Fact!) It won't stay that way. Digwuren 11:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - a cursory examination of a random selection of th articles associated with WikiProject Discrimination suggests that most of them are the worst kind of unsourced and/or OR POV bilge. I'd be glad to see others - including many of the articles you mention above - brought here for AfD. Bigdaddy1981 08:31, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Right, discrimination against peoples or culture doesn't exist in your world, so we should purge this bilge from Wikipedia. So when are you going to start an AfD against Antiziganism? Martintg 11:34, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't know, I haven't seen any "Australians and dogs not allowed" signs, similar to the one in Estophobia and other signs like here [8] Martintg 23:21, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • You may have a point in regard to Australia. But when nation of 140 million armed to the teeth and vast natural resources thinks a tiny neighbouring country of 1.4 million as one of its greatest enemies [9], [10], that is irrational by any standard, hence the validity of an article like Anti-Estonian sentiment Martintg 06:11, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't remember Australia the state engaged in the grave-digging excercise either. Question of WWII is extremely touchy-feely topic for Russians and emotions had been running pretty high during Bronze Soldier row. I'd say that accusation of "imperialism" and "estophobia", liberally sprinkled here by the members of Korps! Estonia are much more prominent examples of racial hatred than speedily-removed sign on single restaurant in provincial city, erected and removed in the heat of spat.RJ CG 15:00, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rather ironic that Russians are so sensitive to moving one single Red Army memorial to a cemetary 60 years after the war, when the Red Army destroyed every single memorial to the Estonian War of Independance in the late 1940's, every single one, with explosives no less! Compared with Estonians showing respect by reinterring the remains from a grave located next to a bustop to a peaceful military cemetary, with Russians destroying hundreds of memorials across Estonia in the 1940's indicates a clear example of Estophobia. Martintg 01:40, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Excellent idea! I didn't even know about WP:WPDISC, but if Bigdaddy's assertion is correct, and if they are perpetuating this kind of stuff, they should better be MfDed. As for your WP:OTHERSTUFFEXIST argument, we're trying to get rid of those, one by one. Anti-Greek, Bosniaks, Croatian and Hungarian, all conceived in the same manner as this one, WP:SYN collection of historical facts, factoids and sore grapes. Serbophobia and Anti-Romanian sentiment did survive in this turn. Oh, yes, and Delete, by this reasoning. Duja► 11:03, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • It isn't really a wonder you didn't know it. Somebody has categorised this AfD under Science and technology, and it seems likely that's how you got here. The topic, obviously, is about humanities instead, and it is to be expected that a hard sciences' geek would be unfamiliar with humanities. Digwuren 11:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is classified so because it belongs to social sciences. The AfD classification is necessarily relatively coarse and sometimes may be not very intuitive. Mukadderat 16:53, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • To satisfy your curiosity, I got aware about it from another Estonian-Russian sour grapes thread at WP:AN/I, and, given my previous involvement with similar articles (check the other Anti-XXXism AfDs linked above), I felt inclined to comment here as well. Not that it matters to anything. Duja► 12:46, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I brought up the term POV earlier, to emphasize that synthesis is used to push a certain POV in the article. But I admit that generally WP:SYN is a much bigger (and more relevant) issue here. At the same time I don't mind at all to give some time (as I mentioned above) to the authors to improve the article (that in its current shape definitely deserves to be deleted). --BeautifulFlying 06:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Noteworthily, Mikkalai issued the AFD less than a day after the article's creation, while it had the "Under construction" tag on it. It isn't surprising that it wasn't in the best of shapes at that time. Digwuren 11:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That's why I find it fair to give you (as the main contributor) a reasonable time to improve the article, and clean it up from OR, SYN & POV. Good luck with that. --BeautifulFlying 17:03, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment A search on "anti estonian sentiment" brings plenty of hits [12] Martintg 11:34, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. First of all, Google tests don't mean anything. And there's also one thing that bother's me... Not to be rude, Ghirla, but I'm wondering about something. Why do you seem to use the word "troll" so much? It's a good idea to keep WP:COOL and assume good faith. I'm sure the writers of the article aren't trolls, so it could be considered a personal attack. — Alex(U|C|E) 05:50, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: It's not neologism. It's less used in english language, more in estonian and russian (for obvious reasons), but it is correctly formed phobia name also accepted. But one thing can noone deny. That the problem discussed in the article is true, and definitely needs some notion in wikipedia. Can anyone argue? Suva 07:48, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • That very well might be the case, but the fact that the subject of discussion is interesting does not override essential WP policies such as WP:OR. When the subject is notable, but the term is not, the article being about the term, that article constitutes original research. IgorSF 07:56, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • What kind of references do you believe would satisfy your concerns? Digwuren 11:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is factually wrong, and as an avid edit warrior on Monument of Lihula, you know it. Consequently, I can, in good conscience, declare that you are lying here. Digwuren 15:00, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • You should remember that good part of article you translated as best proof that Monument contained no Nazi symbols had been devoted to whitewashing of Estonian participation in Nazi military units. All discussion was about symbology, as explicit Nazi symbols on statue would be crime according to Estonian law. But nobody denied connection as a whole, especially taking into account absence of anti-communist military units not associated with German authorities at 1942-1945. So you sir caught red-handed with your baseless politically-motivated accusations. This isn't the first time. RJ CG 15:08, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • What Ghirlandajo is doing here is WP:TROLLing in hope to derail the discussion. And any lie is good for the holy purpose of trolling, right? Digwuren 11:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
*I'd have some words about this but they have all been told before and you have not heard, so theres really no point. You are blind to any other POV than yours and incapable of understanding the struggles of small nations. I guess thats just who you are. We will continue this where it is APPROPRIATE. I have let you troll me long enough.--Alexia Death 12:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • What kind of references do you believe would satisfy your concerns? Digwuren 11:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not DaGizza, but as for my part, it would require a scholarly book or multiple peer-reviewed articles which investigate the phenomenon throughout the history, as presented. Without scholarly research, it's just sour grapes in violation of WP:SYN. Duja► 12:42, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll try to get you a book citation or two soon. For obvious reasons, this is a slower process than with news citations, especially now that the libraries are starting to close down for summer. Digwuren 12:59, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is not yet any scholarly book or multiple peer-reviewed articles yet regarding Terrorism in the United Kingdom, yet we have an article which basically only cites newpaper reports. Why don't we AfD this article too? Martintg 13:01, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • You are kidding right? Terrorism in the United Kingdom is concerned with the recent islamofascist terrorist bombings in London. Your links concerns IRA terrorism a decade earlier. Martintg 23:21, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I guess additional evidence to support the reality of bad faith is in order. Without comments (well, comments will be provided if somebody requests them), check out these deletions: [14], [15], [16], [17], [18]. Digwuren 01:07, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Not only is it a bad faith nomination, but hypocritical. Here the nominator votes to keep Serbophobia in another AfD [19] Martintg 11:39, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe I was the first to point that out, above, but I won't (and can't) claim copyright. As for the "bad faith nom", even if it were one (which I don't presume), it's completely irrelevant as to its merit, based on policies. Duja► 12:40, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would assume you have no trouble differentiating assumptions from evidence-based conclusions. Digwuren 12:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Your statement doesn't address any of the issues raised about this article. The issue is not whether "Estophobia" exists. The issue is whether it is the topic of scholarly discourse anywhere. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:46, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would you consider Vaivere kooli lugu a scholarly discourse? Digwuren 15:00, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also check out [20]. Digwuren 15:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • About the first: I unfortunately don't read a word of Estonian. But it sure doesn't look like a scholarly text. What is it? -- about the second: that's a text that mentions, in passing, that some people were hostile against Estonians at some point in time. That doesn't make "Estophobia" an academic field of study. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:27, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, since Piotrus worked hard to save the anti-Polonism series of articles/categories from deletion, I think it was only natural for him to vote the way he did. --Ghirla-трёп- 20:52, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I suppose it has little to do with contents and topic of the article, and everything to do with this. Duja► 14:50, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hey, I got an edit conflict! But I was the first that got that idea :-)! Duja► 15:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please keep in mind that each "phobia" must be judged by its own merits. What these articles need is massive cleanup, similar to the current campaign against "trivia" garbage sections in articles. Mere collections of facts must be mercilessly deleted unless these facts are quoted in reputable sources in support of the subject. Otherwise it is OR and POV pushing. Mukadderat 16:38, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, of course. The problem is that a cleanup of these articles under normal circumstances has proven difficult and time-consuming, not to mention the constant baby-sitting they require afterwards. A nomination for deletion can force a drastic change: compare "Serbophobia" before and after its June 2007 nomination (although since then, after over a dozen reverts, the old stuff is creeping back into the text). - Regards, Ev 17:31, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Can you - or someone else - finally show where the article is POV or WP:OR#SYN? So far there has been no examples of those, just accusations - which seem to be actually estophobia... Sander Säde 17:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Can you - or someone else - show that any of the sources cited in the article talk about anti-Estonian discrimination as a generalized phenomenon? So far, the sources look like they're talking about individual incidents. Since "estophobia" appears to be a neologism, I doubt anyone's written about something of this name, but I'm happy to reconsider if sources can be brought forward. --Akhilleus (talk) 18:38, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This proposal has merit. I will support this. However, for sake of clarity, it was me who tagged the page as under construction, as RJ CG (talk · contribs) started actively to edit the article while it was obvious that Digwuren was working on it. I thought it to be easiest way to allow him to work in peace even for a little while - especially since I was sure that our estophobes will nominate the article for deletion as soon as they notice it - and, as you can see, it happened. Sander Säde 19:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I think it's a safe bet that the vast majority of folks voting delete on this article are not "estophobes." Those kinds of implications don't help the case here at all... Myself, for example, I voted "weak delete," and to be honest I don't know anything about Estonia (except that it was a former Soviet republic), I know nothing about its history or culture, I could not recognize an Estonian person on the street.. hell, it'd probably take me ten minutes just to find Estonia on a map. So I cannot possibly be an "estophobe." I voted delete because I don't think this article meets Wikipedia policies, not because I hate Estonians. Heh, I wouldn't even know how to insult Estonians even if I wanted too! heh... --Jaysweet 19:22, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think the proposal by Bishonen to move this article to Digwuren's user space is very reasonable. Fundamentally, a good-quality article about Estophobia can be created, but in the present shape the article can't be left in the main article space. --BeautifulFlying 17:17, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think your rant above is a classic case of Estophobia. I don't know where you get the "one third" from, only 9% of people residing in Estonia lack citizenship, and that figure is decreasing every year. The remainder are either Russian or Estonian citizens. Those who naturalised and became Estonian citizens pledged alligence to the Estonian constitution, with the full knowledge that it proclaims the Estonian language as the one and only official language. Of those who gained Russian citizenship, I don't know any country that allows foreign citizens to vote in national elections. So I really don't know what your problem is with Estonia is. Martintg 05:50, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, so it does come down to And you are lynching Negroes after all? And, as you know by reading those articles, they can participate in local elections. Estonian government and non-profit organizations are continuously helping Russophones to get citizenship - such as making language exams easier, free language courses, summer camps for both Russophones and Estonian children and much more. But, well, you may take a horse to the water, but you can't make him drink... Sander Säde 05:28, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You mean, such WP:POINT as this superior example of estophobia? Sander Säde 20:29, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well one can always move keep it in his userspace. We have seen worse, a LOT worse entries in userspaces. --Kuban Cossack 21:03, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We might, but I most certainly have never seen worse racism then [[Estonians|FASCIST PIGS]] in userspace, as it was in your page. Sander Säde 21:25, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could you elaborate what aspect of "nationalist pride" has been wounded? The only "wounded nationalist pride" I see here is wounded Russian pride over removal of a statue to a military cemetery. Martintg 00:09, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, that's not it. The wounded nationalist pride playing rôle at this AFD is about somebody being worshipful enough while writing about Mother Russia. As for the article; the only way of interpreting what it is now, or what it has been within the few last days, as that, is — as much as I can figure — psychological projection. Digwuren 00:55, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • And mark my words; if I see an AfD of Russophobia, I'll vote to delete it on the same grounds already stated. Peter Isotalo 07:09, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Russofobia? I think you voted for the wrong article? Sander Säde 06:52, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • It remarks when it discusses a false accusation. Surely you don't mean to imply that accusations' falsity should be the default option, and it should be pointed out when some turns out to be true? Digwuren 14:20, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sorry, I didn't quite get you. I wrote that in order to call an accusation false you have to have a proof of it. Furthermore the very existence of some of the accusations and their connection with Estophobia are not sourced. Alæxis¿question? 16:44, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the Western world, it's generally accepted that in matters of accusation, the burden of proof is on the accuser. (Remember also the Scottish verdict.) Even so, the falsity of some of these accusations has been proven.
As these accusations are now unreferenced I don't know who made them and, consequently, what kind of standards should be applied to them. Alæxis¿question? 17:20, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Your notion regarding the connection not being solidly sourced at some cases appears to have merit, though, and is certainly an area of further development. Digwuren 16:58, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that I see no way of proving this connexion by legitimate sources in the near future (especially considering that no such term as Estophobia is used now in scholarly sources :)). That's why I've voted for deletion. Alæxis¿question? 17:20, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As for the article: yes, there is definitely plenty of hate to go around. Hate for and by Estonians is a notable topic. In fact, at times the whole nations seems to be acting like a hate group. This hate has however nothing to do with discrimination or racism, but originates from animosity between Soviet Estonians in the Estonian SSR and the Estonian exile community and the Estonian Government in Exile. The fact that this hatred boils over to Wikipedia in the form of this article, its AfD nomination (this page), and even to a revert war on the nomination's talk page, is proof only of the fact that Estonians have so far been unable to reach a national consensus between those loyal to to Soviet Estonia and those waging the Cold War in the exile community (and often accused of collaboration with the Nazis).
If this article is to stay (under a different name), it should also present the factual (and nonfactual) basis for the anti-Estonian sentiment. In fact, we may need to repeat every word of Soviet propaganda against the Estonian exile community. (I do not think this is what the articles creator had in mind.)
Now, if I may, I will pour some more gasoline on this flamefest.
  1. A story I only heard a few weeks ago: The Baltic exile community in Sweden has been very successful. Many Balts own large apartments on Stockholm's prestige neighborhood of Östermalm. It seems to be a widely held belief in Sweden, that these apartments were financed by gold carried by the refugees over the Baltic Sea at the bottom of their suitcases. Naturally, the story goes, this gold consisted mainly of gold teeth extracted from Jewish Holocaust victims, executed by Estonian Nazi collaborators. (I think I may have traced the factual origins of the story, but more on that later.)
  2. Many leaders of the Estonian exile community were Nazi collaborators, many were even key figures in organizing the Holocaust in Estonia. One notable example is Ain-Ervin Mere, founder of the Eesti Vabadusliit (Estonian Liberation Movement?) During Nazi rule he was personally responsible for selekting German and Czechoslovakian Jews for immediate gold-teeth extraction, or for rape in orgies arranged by his henchmen (and delayed execution).
Not all Estonian exiles were Nazis. The problem is, that unlike other European nations, the Estonian exile community has never gone through denazification. I would not be surprised if some of the editors contributing to this trollfest were (uncivil comment removed). -- Petri Krohn 01:20, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Since the author of the above comments himself admits that he is pouring gasoline on a fire here, and so is obviously trolling, I would urge all editors to think carefully before responding. Reading Wikipedia:What is a troll may be useful. Balcer 01:30, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am not trolling, but you are right, I would not appreciate yet another trollfest started by my comment. The reason I have included the inflammatory material, is to point out what kind of stuff needs to be included if this "article" is to stay. If you cannot handle this, then DELETE. -- Petri Krohn 01:41, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. As to why I am presenting my possible contribution to the article here, and not in the article itself? The creator of the article has been systematically reverting my every Estonia related contribution since he "joined" Wikipedia in the wake of the Bronze Soldier controversy. I do not expect to be able to edit the article, unless he is banned from Wikipedia. I do not think our Russian editors have much of a change either. In its present state, the article is irreparably damaged by ownership. -- Petri Krohn 01:57, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You know Petri, your support of Ghirla's classification of votes along ethnic lines [22], and your latest outburst above, demonstrates to all here what you really are, no matter how much you attempt to spin it afterwards in some desperate damage control effort. Why do you harbour such strong hate towards Estonians? You seem to believe there is world wide conspiracy of emigre Estonians lurking in Wikipedia. What next, a claim there exists a Protocol of the Elders of Estonian Exiles guiding their activities? Smells like Estophobia. Martintg 03:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Do not feed the troll. Small lies, big lies, statistics and Petri Krohn. Sander Säde 07:11, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
  1. ^ International Centre for Defence Studies: [tt_news=4&tx_ttnews[backPid]=71&cHash=f1a5f211bc Russia’s Involvement in the Tallinn Disturbances]
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