The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Geschichte (talk) 10:10, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Gray Matter (company) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Mostly unsourced; the company is likely unnotable and fails WP:NCORP / WP:GNG. A WP:BEFORE shows practically no sourcable information in reliable sources. IceWelder [✉] 19:30, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions. IceWelder [✉] 19:30, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. IceWelder [✉] 19:30, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 19:32, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Weak keep As a video game developer (not publisher), with a fair number of notable games that they created, it is not unreasonable to have a page about them that can be used to link back from the respect game pages. This is not saying this makes the company notable and there should be more effort to expand. Due to its age, this likely means print sources. For example, I found CBC briefly talking to Chris Gray about it in 2010. I can't see the full article, but there's a detailed article on the closure in Canadian Business in 1997 per Google Books. --Masem (t) 17:25, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Masem, I get your point, though the article seems to fail GNG/NCORP in general, with or without being a developer. I amended the History section using the source you provided and the one that already existed. I cannot find sources for most of the games listed. It seems like most sources (including the one from CBC) are focused on Chris Gray himself, rather than one of his companies. We consider creating an article for him instead of keeping this one. IceWelder [✉] 21:40, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  I agree that NCORP says "no" but at the same time, WP:NCREATIVE #4 (yes, I know that's for BIOs) would imply its possible. I would love to link where I've seen my argument used as keep for AFD (a company that is the creative force behind a number of disparate blue-linked notable works should have a landing page even if the company is not really itself notable for purposes of navigation purposes) but it's been a while. Hence why I add I think there's more likely sourcing and provided a couple that I know do exist but simply don't have full access to. While one is focused on Gray, they are clearly asking about this company too, it would be like omitting articles talking to Sid Meier on an article about Firaxis. --Masem (t) 23:43, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  This is an issue that needs to be dealt with in the guidelines. There have been some recent AfD's for companies closely associated with a "creative" who probably meets notability requirements. NCORP has no guidelines for this issue and could probably use some. Until that happens though, the only real recommendation is to create an article on the create "notable" and redirect to there. HighKing⁺⁺ 19:36, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Although there is a case for the "creative" behind this company to have their own article, since this article is about a company, the appropriate SNG is WP:NCORP. The criteria for establishing notability for companies/organizations as per WP:NCORP is for multiple sources (at least two) of significant coverage with in-depth information *on the company* and (this bit is important!) containing "Independent Content". "Independent content", in order to count towards establishing notability, must include original and independent opinion, analysis, investigation, and fact checking that are clearly attributable to a source unaffiliated to the subject. None of the references in the article meet the criteria and having searched I am unable to locate any references that meet the criteria. Topic fails GNG/WP:NCORP. HighKing⁺⁺ 19:36, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - Agree that WP:AUTHOR should apply to developers of creative works, even if they're a corporate entity. If anything, it's just useful for navigation purposes between game infoboxes. I made a similar point at the InnerSloth DRV. This isn't just some company churning out stamped metal on a production line. - hahnchen 15:36, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.