The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was WP:SNOW keep (non-admin closure) Elli (talk | contribs) 19:45, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Halyna Hutchins (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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WP:BLP1E; WP:ONEEVENT . Article created on the day the news broke about her death. While I am sure the women in red gang would disagree, to my mind, from the body of her article it's not evident there are any achievements in her life for which she would have been notable for wikipedia had she not been killed by Baldwin. Daikido (talk) 10:45, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirect to Rust (upcoming film)#Shooting incident, as that's the only thing she's known for (if a separate article for that incident gets create, redirect there instead). But clearly fails WP:ONEEVENT, and she wasn't notable in her life. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:53, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to Rust (upcoming film)#Shooting incident. Only really notable now because of the shooting, prior to this I never heard of her. JMHamo (talk) 11:44, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 11:48, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 11:48, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Multiple accomplishments as a cinematographer are enough to establish notability. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 11:50, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. After her death, media have been covering her life and work in detail, including BFMTV ("Qui était Halyna Hutchins"), and BBC ("Halyna Hutchins: Rising star of film industry was 'an incredible artist'"). Even though occasioned by the shooting, this coverage is about more than that, avoiding ONEEVENT problems. Reducing an acclaimed artist's work to a redirect covering her being shot by somebody else would be demeaning. Sandstein 11:52, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - if not, Redirect to Rust (upcoming film)#Shooting incident. The assertion that there were not to be enough notable achievements in her life had she not been killed is pure WP:CRYSTALBALL. How does the nominating editor know how little (or much) significant work was to come from the subject in later life? That part of the editor's argument makes me think the slim notability to be even bigger, and the manner of her death requires some acknowledgement, even if that is by redirect. Ref ^(chew)(do) 12:07, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep for now. It is too soon to tell if enough information can be found to create a good wikipedia article. if not perhaps making a page specifically about her death ,following investigation and possible legal proceedings (assuming there is any)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.3.238.12 (talk) 12:15, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please see WP:OTHERSTUFF. Wyliepedia @ 12:41, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep I would have assumed with her film industry credits it was note worthy enough for a Wikipedia page. The manner of her death is very significant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Knockdomney (talk • contribs) 12:33, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep for now. To contrast the very first argument given: this article is not even a day old. While most editors might be quick to look at her tragic death as one event, her article has yet to be improved sufficiently to warrant deletion. Give it a month. Wyliepedia @ 12:40, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• The onus is on the article creator to demonstrate it passes WP:GNG, not the other way round. They haven't done that, and doesn't look like she does. If in 1 month, 6 months or a year's time, she does for some reason, the article could be recreated at that point. But this is an article created in reaction to her death. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:58, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Question - There is no doubt that the article was created in reaction to her death, but how is that a problem? Just because there is one event that triggers an article creation doesn't mean that WP:ONEEVENT applies, or does it? Renerpho (talk) 16:56, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep – a lot of information is coming out about her career. However, the article for Joel Souza was also created the day of the incident but the same can't be said about him. I vote to redirect the Joel Souza article and keep the one about Hutchins. Some Dude From North Carolina (talk) 13:07, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Sufficient sourcing to establish notability not only about her death, but about her career and overall body of work, which negates any ONEEVENT concerns. — Hunter Kahn 13:31, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep due to body of work; a "one event" fallacy. Ribbet32 (talk) 13:35, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete-In accordance with WP:ONEEVENT, this article should be removed.Nothing that I see about her in this article is notable. If she warranted her own Wikipedia article, she probably would have had one before Baldwin shot her. Display name 99 (talk) 13:53, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • An WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESNTEXIST fallacy: "because articles must wait for someone who is interested in the subject to notice they are missing before they are created, a lot of articles do not exist that probably should." Ribbet32 (talk) 14:02, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ribbet32, that might apply if the article was not created immediately and obviously in reaction to a particularly major incident, which by itself does not establish notability. Display name 99 (talk) 15:18, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Move to "Death of Halyna Hutchins", how we have tended to handle this sort of issue. PatGallacher (talk) 14:21, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That would just repeat the information from the Rust article. Some Dude From North Carolina (talk) 15:13, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per Eastmain, Sandstein, Ref, Knockdomney, Hunter Kahn and Ribbet32. Halyna Hutchins is without a doubt sufficiently notable to be the subject of a Wikipedia article. She has 32 credits as a cinematographer as well as a number of other film credits and won the Jury Prize for Best Cinematography at the 2019 English Riviera Film Festival. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 15:01, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  I absolutely agree. While she isn't super-notable, even without her death, she would still be borderline notable enough for an article. EytanMelech (talk) 15:17, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  I am not sure this obscure festival is a criteria for notability: does Boris Hallvig have a Wikipedia page ? He is the only other winner of the Cinematography prize in the history of this festival, that only added a cinematography prize in 2019, quite a reference... --Mayfoev (talk) 17:02, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per editors before me. She has many notable credits. It's true that the article was mostly like created in response to her death, but as Ribbet32 points out "because articles must wait for someone who is interested in the subject to notice they are missing before they are created, a lot of articles do not exist that probably should." She should have already had an article before her death, but it took her death for an editor to realize that we didn't have one for her. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 15:22, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Move to "Death of Halyna Hutchins" as that is what was notable enough to cause this article creation. Warren Dew (talk) 15:25, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this. Trillfendi (talk) 15:31, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Warren Dew and Trillfendi: As I said before, a "death of" article would simply repeat the same information as the Rust article. She is notable enough to have an article about her career. Some Dude From North Carolina (talk) 15:35, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly disagree with this. She has several notable credits. Yes, her death is what brought attention to the fact that she was lacking an article, but it's not what makes her notable. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 15:37, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete or Move: Per nom and above comment. Subject was not notable under WP:FILMMAKER or WP:GNG prior to incident. Incident has clearly garnered media attention and, as such, should either be included in an article somewhere (Rust movie) or have a standalone for this event. The incident is what is notable, not the individual. GauchoDude (talk) 15:36, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, the individual is notable (from „She grew up on a military base in the Arctic Circle surrounded by reindeer and nuclear submarines“ to Kyiv University and LA), in lived 42 yrs...☆☆☆—Pietadè^Talk 15:51, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Besides, looking at the list of obituaries published by „The...Reporter“, are there any other insignificant persons, to be excluded?☆☆☆—Pietadè^Talk 16:29, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep The article is not a day old and there’s significant coverage in the media. The other alternative would be just moving it to "Death of Halyna Hutchins". Keivan.f^Talk 16:14, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: Given the amount of info the article has now, it seems that the individual is notable enough to merit an article, even putting aside the increased notoriety due to the unfortunate circumstances of the individual's death.--EdgarCabreraFariña (talk) 16:17, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to Rust (upcoming film)#Shooting incident. No independent notability for the individual, just the event. WP:BLP1E and WP:NOTMEMORIAL apply. Only deep coverage of her came after her death. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:20, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: Body of work substantial enough to justify keeping, aside from today’s tragic eve. yorkshiresky (talk) 16:35, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - From what others in the film industry have said about her, she was notable for her work where men typically have dominated the field. [1] JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 16:42, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: Enough information for her notability as per now--Noel baran (talk) 16:45, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, without redirect. She would have been notable enough without the events leading to her death. This was merely an opportunity to create an article that should have been created a long time ago. Renerpho (talk) 16:52, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: We can debate the importance for her career alone (I think it would be fine for a Wikipedia article), but the combination of her career and the circumstances of her death absolutely make this a clear keep for me. It is an important historical moment in filmmaking, and it will give future people a chance to learn about her life's work and legacy. Electricmaster (talk) 16:56, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, or move to "Death of Halyna Hutchins". She doesn't seem notable, but her manner of death perhaps is.--A bit iffy (talk) 17:01, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to Rust (upcoming film)#Shooting incident or move to "Death of Halyna Hutchins". She was probably as talented as tributes seem to say, and a promising artist, but nothing in her body of work was notable at the time of her death (otherwise many obscure cinematographers would have a Wikipedia page). Mayfoev (talk) 17:09, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, without redirect. She would have been notable enough without the events leading to her death. This was merely an opportunity to create an article that should have been created a long time ago. Renerpho (talk) 16:52, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: Of course this should be kept. I will never understand this desire on the part of some editors to delete articles! We want more information, not less. And who's to judge whose career is and isn't notable? She was the DP on Darlin', that is enough for me, as I very much like that film, and it's part of The Woman series of films that are cult favorites. Jmj713 (talk) 17:24, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: So that others may know the dangers of using prop guns; this is not the first death that has resulted on a movie set. Her life was as important as any other person. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.105.50.19 (talk) 17:37, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: If the upcoming film is/was important enough to include A-list actors, the cinematographer tragically killed on set is certainly notable enough to have her own Wikipedia page. Phineas Gage (just a random construction foreman) would not have had a Wikipedia page had he not been impaled by an iron rod while working. People will want to know who this person was and her body of work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8806:1100:4C0:8C59:8AD3:4219:A0BB (talk) 17:57, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - she appears to have had WP:CREATIVE notability before her death due to her collective body of work, and she now appears to have further WP:BASIC notability due to the in-depth coverage of her and her career from multiple independent and reliable sources. Beccaynr (talk) 18:01, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Move - Moving to "Death of Halyna Hutchins" would seem to be option most consistent with similar events. While at this time most of the information would be repeated between this article and "Rust" as the event develops and more information becomes available and subsequent fallout occurs, this would be likely be better suited for this article and not an article about the film. 2001:8003:2360:2400:D17E:68E8:B250:54F6 (talk) 18:07, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: Is it too soon to note that it's WP:SNOWing? – Athaenara ✉ 18:30, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since this is not a vote tally and some of the "keep" votes are non-policy based, such as So that others may know the dangers of using prop guns, yes, it would be too quick to close this now. An admin will need to take their time parsing this. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:35, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep she was even described in the main Dutch news programm: NOS Journaal. SportsOlympic (talk) 18:34, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. (Rephrasing after edit conflict.) Note arguments put forth by Eastmain, Sandstein, Knockdomney, Hunter Kahn, Roman Spinner, JDDJS, Yorkshiresky, Junglecat, and others. (Is it too soon to point out that it's WP:SNOWing and time to speedy keep?) – Athaenara ✉ 18:41, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ukraine-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 18:34, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - her work is notable within WP:GNG. And is within inclusion. That her article was created after her tragic and high profile death is irrelevant.BabbaQ (talk) 18:40, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - the BBC and Guardian articles cited above are just two of the many examples of significant coverage showing that she is more than just someone who happened to die on a film set. We have to understand this is something that Wikipedia readers will be searching for and to reduce it to a redirect to a sentence or two about her in another article or to just delete the content entirely would be wholly inappropriate. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 19:04, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep I think it's becoming clear that Wikipedia was short to her accomplishments rather than the other way around. I think multiple accomplishments in a widely visible profession and mentionings in several papers beforehand is ample grounds for a page being created. Adamopoulos (talk) 19:07, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Lmao, typical Americans, wanting to dismiss or marginalize foreign talent. The problem wasn't that she wasn't sufficiently notable, but that this site failed to recognize her talents by having an article about her prior to death. CompactSpacez (talk) 19:08, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - There is already enough info proving her work is notable. Reminder: not only people working on Hollywood blockbusters are notable in cinematography. The fact that there was no article before her death is an oversight, not the fact that article was created. Stansult (talk) 19:12, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - Her work is notable. YoungstownToast (talk) 19:17, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: There are many valid references on this page. - EclecticEnnui (talk) 19:33, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: This is big news. - Jumping popcorn (talk), 19:39, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.