- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was redirect to Cymbal. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 13:38, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Hand cymbal (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Firstly, this is a disambiguation page disguised as an article. Secondly, hand cymbals strictly refer to orchestral crash cymbals as the entire etymology of "hand" cymbals arose as a way to distinguish it from suspended cymbals. The "article" is wrong and unnecessary. Why? I Ask (talk) 15:54, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 16:04, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: This is certainly a deletable sub-stub as it stands owing to the lack of any references at all but I am hoping to save it. I get almost 25 million ghits on hand cymbal and the first few pages all appear relevant, and while there are only two incoming wikilinks from articles, at worst a redirect would seem more appropriate to me. The nomination makes two points but neither appear valid reasons for deletion to me... there is no attempt to disguise this as anything, it was always intended as a stub, and while some organologists would support the personal opinion that it is wrong these would be ones focussed on Western style orchestration. The other meaning of hand cymbal is well established too in my experience... but possibly more in world music. Andrewa (talk) 19:40, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: If you can find any sources that call a suspended cymbal a "hand cymbal", your claim would have some merit. However, nearly every text I have found refers to clash cymbals as hand cymbals. There aren't that many non-western cultures that use suspended cymbals (if you know of any let me know). They remain fairly rooted in western orchestras meaning that western organology still makes the most sense for them (every maker of cymbals is Western too). Also maybe this analogy helps you see my point, but timpani are played with mallets yet they are not a "mallet instrument". Just because you change implements (e.g. striking sus. cymbals with your hand) does not mean the instrument is classified as something else. Why? I Ask (talk) 07:58, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment You bring up a fairly good point but I still believe that the page would work better as a disambiguation page. I feel like "hand cymbal" is just a definition (WP:NOT#DICDEF), for example, "Hand cymbals are two cymbals held in either hand, one striking the other". There are several instruments sometimes referred to as hand cymbals such as the Tingsha, Finger Cymbal, Taal, and the Bock-a-da-bock but all relevant information is located on their pages. Perhaps create a disambiguation page with the definition at the top followed by the corresponding articles. Why? I Ask (talk) 07:58, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Redirect to Cymbal. The disambiguation can be performed there in context, not as this unnecessary definition article. May also redirect to Clash cymbals as the primary meaning for this term. Reywas92Talk 07:02, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Redirect to cymbal per Reywas. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 18:09, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: I must admit I'm having trouble finding sources! When I bought the lovely 11" Paiste Traditionals thin splash I still own it was described on their web page as "suitable for use as a hand cymbal" (that may not be word perfect but "hand cymbal" is) but that model and page have been deleted (but some 602s and even Sound Creations are back! Yay!). "Hand cymbal" there certainly meant, played by hand as a suspended cymbal, it was standard terminology and that particular cymbal would be far too fragile to use in a pair. Times change, and cymbal sales literature is notoriously rubbish. My father, a metallurgist, used to read my cymbal catalogs and laugh out loud at the claims made. And now all online discussion of percussion has an above-average rubbish content too, I watch the drum kit article from time to time and there's a steady stream of mainly well-intentioned but often quite ridiculous stuff confidently added to it. Maybe we should have an article on drummer jokes as they obviously do have a basis! Anyway, well done on finding one source, and interested to see where this goes, obviously. But take some of what is said above with a grain of salt. Andrewa (talk) 20:15, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.