The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 19:07, 3 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hendricus Thijsen (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Fails WP:GNG and WP:SPORTCRIT. Prod and notability tag contested. Avilich (talk) 18:42, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Avilich (talk) 18:42, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Olympics and Netherlands. Shellwood (talk) 19:20, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  In dutch sports history he is recalled as the first dutch male gymnastics world champion. I would keep it. Ruud Buitelaar (talk) 00:11, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: passes WP:NGYMNAST as a winner at the 1903 World Artistic Gymnastics Championships. Note that his name is spelled as "Henricus Thyssen" here. StAnselm (talk) 19:41, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: this was a very poor PROD, considering this is a world champion. StAnselm (talk) 19:53, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: if anyone can lay hands on some copies of Algemeen Handelsblad from 1903, I'm sure we'll find some significant coverage. According to this website, it had extensive write-ups. StAnselm (talk) 20:47, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• The articles are here: [1] [2] [3], no Thijsen. Cattivi (talk) 09:09, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• I have found the complete, detailled results of the 1903 world championship in Het Turnblad. [Het turnblad; orgaan van het Nederlandsch Gymnastiek Verbond, jrg 17, 1904, no 3, 01-02-1904. Geraadpleegd op Delpher op 08-08-2022, https://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=MMKNGU01:001288004:00001] (page 45-50) H. Thijsen is competitor III Nederland. It has name, date of birth and the club of the Dutch gymnasts but that’s all. Cattivi (talk) 12:24, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:30, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirect, per lack of the requisite SIGCOV as demonstrated above. JoelleJay (talk) 03:01, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. In cases like this, where we've got a WORLD champion in a major event, coverage is hard to access, and the person meets NSPORT, I think it is appropriate to IAR. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:04, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per BeanieFan11. StAnselm (talk) 15:33, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Achievements indicate that offline sources are likely. MrsSnoozyTurtle 08:41, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete No sources have been presented and three-way world champion in 1903 is not enough for me to buck the notability guidlines. Cattivi has found a newspaper from the time and found only trival coverage. --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 12:13, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak Delete - tried to look through various sites through the Wikipedia library but both spellings of the name unfortunately came up empty, aside from one passing newspaper mention. There most likely are Dutch sources somewhere out there and I'd be happy to change my !vote then, but as of right now the article doesn't seem to meet GNG. DatGuy^Talk_Contribs 12:54, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 18:52, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting considering possible offline sources that could exist.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:53, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. In his favor, Thijssen was a world champion. He is a historical figure. There is absolutely no WP:BLP concern. So I would consider him notable with less coverage than a recent athlete. That said, what is needed for considering him notable, within his era, isn't there either. Or at the very least hasn't been found by all who searched extensively, including me. This leads me to the conclusion that Thijsen is NOT NOTABLE enough for an article on Wikipedia for a lack of WP:SIGCOV. Without prejudice against a future article if more is written or found. gidonb (talk) 19:49, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

To put this in the greater context of Olympic athletes: it took some time to make a huge deal out of the Olympic Games. In the early editions interest existed but was moderate compared to later editions. gidonb (talk) 02:46, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Here we have a verifiable Olympic competitor and world champion in a single discipline. That would seem to meet NGYMNAST, although everything I'm reading about the 1903 meet makes it seem a lower bar for entry (only four teams, only 60 total individuals, only 36 actual competitive team members). The current condition of the page is marginal although several reliable sources are applied, if some merely statistical. Looking at Template:NavigationWorldChampionsArtisticGymnasticsMen'sPommelHorse one can see Thijsen would be the only red or black link on the template if deleted (which gives me a IAR vibe, as a wikipedian who expects all such subjects to receive better articles eventually). If I had access to French, Dutch or Belgian local newspapers of the day (and could read the language), I'm confident that significant coverage would be found. Further, national sporting heroes, especially world champions, would be highly likely to receive occasional coverage as they aged and newer world championships were held. In a pre-internet time, national sports figures were actual celebrities. Since such offline archives will eventually be available online, and per NGYMNAST we may presume likely contemporary and later significant coverage, I'm asserting keep. BusterD (talk) 19:25, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm sorry to say, I read the entire gymnastics-history.com link and ignored the bold-faced "not an individual competition." I'm striking through my keep. My intention to presume likely coverage was based entirely on the world champion achievement, and this seems dubious. BusterD (talk) 08:44, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  @BusterD, NSPORT requires at least one source of SIGCOV to be cited in the article to remain in mainspace -- without that, we also can't apply the presumption of SIGCOV afforded from meeting NGYM. We additionally don't have evidence that contemporary gymnasts in his country actually did receive SIGCOV; how do we know that all national sports figures were celebrities if we don't have proof? Couldn't it be the case that, with the printed space constraints that existed at the time, individual athletes actually didn't garner GNG-level discussion? The whole reason several NSPORTS2022 proposals passed was because coverage of even world champions and Olympics medalists just wasn't materializing enough to justify presuming notability. JoelleJay (talk) 01:03, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The 1903 world championship was not an individual competition. In 1903 Thijsen was a gymnast who performed well individually, but he finished last with his team. I don’t know when he became world champion, but it can’t be before 1922. [4] I could expand the article a bit: Year of emigration to South Africa (1925), name of his wife, his occupation, his home address (he died at home), but everything would be based on primary sources. For me, improving the 1903 world championship article would be more important than this article, because it appears to cause confusion. Cattivi (talk) 06:32, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• delete Per Cattivi's research. When the official write-up the the event we are claiming he is notable for doesn't even give more than name, age, and home-town we aren't going to magically find more sources. Rockphed (talk) 18:44, 3 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.