The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus, but mostly no support for deletion. Clearly, there is no support for deletion here. Opinions appear to be split about whether the coverage justifies a separate article or a redirect in light of the recommendations of WP:BAND about subjects mostly known for their association with a band and this is fundamentally an editorial decision; probably best to continue the discussion on the talk page. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 08:56, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Amending my close because as pointed out on my talk page, the prior close suggested an unqualified "keep" which isn't the case here. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 10:12, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Jillian Hervey[edit]

Jillian Hervey (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Alone, Hervey does not have any notable accomplishments to have a stand-alone article. The page is riddled with trivial information about her background and briefly mentions her debut recording with her notable band. Users can argue to redirect or merge this page to Lion Babe, but there is nothing really here to combine into the band page. TheGracefulSlick (talk) 00:23, 3 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Sam Sailor ^Talk! 09:10, 3 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. Sam Sailor ^Talk! 09:10, 3 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirect Delete and redirect to band article Lion Babe as a plausible, categorized ((R from member)). Sam Sailor ^Talk! 09:14, 3 August 2016 (UTC) -Amended. — Sam Sailor 15:50, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge and redirect to Vanessa Williams or to the band. TOOSOON perhaps, but let's preserve the bluelink, as otherwise it's just going to be recreated. Montanabw^(talk) 18:46, 4 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to Lion Babe (and add ((R from member))). The subject is not notable independently of the band, but the name is plausible search term. There is nothing to merge from the article though, so a redirect will suffice. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 11:58, 5 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• REDIRECT to father (Ramon Hervey II)'s page, Lion Babe, where she is surely mentioned. Quis separabit? 20:23, 5 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Actually her band Lion Babe is much more notable so it is much better target for redirect. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 01:31, 6 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, @Lemongirl942 . Thanks. Quis separabit? 19:47, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep with numerous sources such as these, including this one and this one in Glamour magazine and this one and this one -- all in-depth -- plus has anybody noticed that this page averages 500 pageviews per day? Deleting this article leaves all our readers high and dry with their hair up in a frizz. Clearly she is much more than her band Lion Babe, being the subject of many articles in the media. Elle magazine devoted an entire article to her -- one of many publications doing so.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 19:42, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• ELLE Meets Jillian Hervey, Five minutes with Lion Babe - How is the subject independently notable of the band? --Lemongirl942 (talk) 08:37, 10 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Enough articles focus on her, with her name in the headline, showing her photo, making the point that she is interesting, her hair styles, etc. Of course she's a member of the band (which is notable in its own right) but the sources indicate that she is a subject in her own right.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 10:22, 10 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• You may wish to see my comment about WP:BAND below. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 10:50, 10 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Keep: Numerous sources found by clicking the links right below the section header here, Tom only lists some. --GRuban (talk) 18:08, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment per WP:BAND, Note that members of notable bands are redirected to the band's article, not given individual articles, unless they have demonstrated individual notability for activity independent of the band, such as solo releases. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 08:38, 10 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes. She has demonstrated individual notability for activity independent of the band. Let's look at the articles about her: Lion Babe's Jillian Hervey Is the New Face of Pantene: 'It's Really Exciting to be a Voice for Girls with Curls' People Magazine; How Lion Babe's Jillian Hervey Learned to Love Her Curly Hair Glamour Magazine You Won't Believe How Lion Babe's Jillian Hervey Keeps her Curls so full and Fabulous Essence magazine Why Lion Babe's Jillian Hervey Says Sweat Is the Secret to Great Volume Allure magazine Lion Babe’s Jillian Hervey Has An Important Beauty PSA For Men Huffington Post. These are just a few, there are easily a dozen more like this. They are not articles about her band, they're about her. Actually, they're about her hair. I could see more of a case to be made for the article being redirected to Jillian Hervey's Hair than to her band. --GRuban (talk)

  Good idea. We could comb the Internet for even more sources.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 16:03, 10 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Those are all interviews and primary sources and many of the headlines itself actually reference her as "Lion Babe" member. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 13:14, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirect to her band. When she stops being mentioned as a member of the band or as an advocate for curls (if that ever happens), she will warrant a standalone article. Until then, I can't see through all the hair. KDS4444 (talk) 04:39, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong keep with the note that usually I don't even believe in the term, keep is a keep. But I want to stress my view on this one, in light of my concern that the WP's editorial demographics may be at risk of underestimating the significance of notice for Hervey in hair politics--which is to say, in U.S. race politics. WP needs more coverage of this, not less. I don't think this could be appropriately covered on the band's page; possibly it could be covered on her mother's page (where, sigh, I'm noticing now that Williams's place in race and beauty debates in the U.S. is also probably not adequately accounted for), but given the extent of the sources on Hervey specifically, I don't see a reason to shoe-horn her into a parent's entry. I'm glad AfD has brought the entry to my attention, I'll work on it this evening. Innisfree987 (talk) 19:41, 28 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Update There's still more to add (about her childhood, her music and still more beauty/fashion coverage), but as I realize this AfD has been hanging around a while already, I thought it'd be better to give notice sooner than later that I have gone in and added a bunch of material w/sources; still a work in progress but I hope the progress at least helps clarify why I consider this entry a worthwhile addition to Wikipedia. Innisfree987 (talk) 23:33, 28 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Umm, WP:NOTADVOCACY is a policy. We are not supposed to cover something unless the media has covered it as well. I still don't see anything in the sources about US Race politics - the only thing I see are interviews which are primary sources and she talk about product endorsements. In addition, considering that there is a huge amount of coverage for American articles, I have no sympathy for keeping this article and intensifying our WP:GEOBIAS on Wikipedia. A redirect to the band is appropriate here. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 00:22, 29 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Have you had a chance to look at my updates to the entry? They are all sourced--I can assure you, the last thing I want to see on Wikipedia is unsourced commentary on race. Still not all the sources that exist are yet incorporated; here's a list of five sources where secondary commentary explicitly situates her in context of racial politics:

• http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/05/lion-babe-mac-future-forward.html
• http://observer.com/2016/08/taraji-p-henson-is-the-latest-black-celeb-calling-the-shots-in-beauty/
• http://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/artists/lion-babe-interview-its-a-good-time-for-women-in-pop-music/
• http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/634-black-weirdo-rich-kids-zoe-willow-jaden-and-pop-nepotism/
• https://www.yahoo.com/beauty/jillian-hervey-and-her-curls-1445166476632118.html

There are also many additional sources in which secondary commentary raises the related issue of (often even framing the whole article as being about) the "natural hair movement" or the "curly hair movement" (decent overview here for anyone unfamiliar with the significance: Afro-textured_hair#Politics_of_Black_hair). As I say I've begun to incorporate sources but I've probably only gotten to a third of them so far.

Feel obliged to say too, I'd think it truly unfortunate if the approach we took to remedying geobias was one of eliminating arguably notable cases that are subjects of multiple other points of underrepresentation on WP, as this entry is. That only narrows Wikipedia's coverage; it does nothing to expand on source-able topics that are nevertheless under-described on Wikipedia. But my bottom line here is even aside from redressing any bias, there's plenty of encyclopedic, sourceable material on this subject; much of it is not about her band, much of it is not about her parents, so it's best represented on a standalone page. Innisfree987 (talk) 02:44, 29 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirect - To Lion Babe. Too much of her more notable parts of her career is in context of her band. Maybe in a few years a standalone article will be warrented but not now.ALongStay (talk) 23:22, 29 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep as satisfying GNG. In finding significant coverage in independent reliable sources, I rely primarily on the San Francisco Chronicle,^[1] Allure,^[2] and Glamour^[3] pieces. There are more sources given in the article and mentioned by others in this discussion, but these three are enough to sell me.

  In my view, the suggestion, per BAND, that "members of notable bands are redirected to the band's article, not given individual articles, unless they have demonstrated individual notability for activity independent of the band, such as solo releases" only applies to determinations made under that guideline; I don't believe it limits findings under the more restrictive GNG and BIO guidelines. I also don't agree that the subject is any less notable because her notability largely turns on her membership in Lion Babe: the coverage is still significant coverage of her; and many subjects are primarily notable for their involvement with a single organization or activity and are frequently referred to in reference to that: sportspeople, musicians, politicians, and astronauts come readily to mind. Rebbing 12:27, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.