The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Michaelas10 14:02, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jocelyne Couture-Nowak

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Jocelyne Couture-Nowak (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

A French language instructor killed in the Virginia Tech shooting. Much of the article lingers on the status of her husband, who, unlike Mrs. Couture-Nowak, appears to meet WP:PROF. A claim for notability is as founder of École acadienne de Truro (article recently created), but I am unsure if this crosses the threshold for inclusion. BanyanTree 23:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment, wiki is not a crystal ball - if you really believe your argument then that article should be deleted and then recreated if/when notability is proven at a later date.--Vintagekits 00:06, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, so we must err on the side of exclusion! Got it. Hard disk space is almost as precious as oxygen, after all. Uggh 04:47, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We're not psychics on Wikipedia. We can't know whether someone will be notable or not. But we can't give people entries on the expectation (here, unfounded) that they eventually will probably have something notable about them. Pablosecca 07:14, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment, I am sure she was a lovely woman and deserves to be remembered but wiki is not a memorial we need to satisfy WP:N to be included. A lot of the "keep" votes are very emotional but are not based on wiki policy. It is more than likely that this lady will become notable in the future, however, we need a little perspective on the recent events.--Vintagekits 09:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete unless it is shown that the subject meets inclusion criteria, which seems more and more unlikely. Wikipedia is by nature a passionless, emotionless, cold, disintersted reference tool and, as much as the shootings sicken us all, we need to keep the good of the project in mind here and not let memorials creep in. youngamerican (ahoy hoy) 13:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We don't have articles for more than half the heads of state from 150 years ago. Are they suddenly not notable now, either? -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 02:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies, allow me to rephrase. It is a great coincidence that despite no one feeling her improtant enough to create an article before her death, they suddenly feel it neccesary to make one, and (accidently i am sure) forget to include any of her achievements. --Jimmi Hugh 02:53, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sadly, a lot of people here are lazy, so they only write about things when there are a bunch of sources within easy arm's reach. That kind of thing tends to happen when people die (as ten thousand newspapers run obituaries), so a lot of bio articles here get written right after the subject's death. Like I said below, I don't have an opinion on Couture-Nowak's notability yet, but to make a determination purely on the basis of when the article was created is crazy. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 03:03, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. In fact, an MLA Bibliography search reveals not a single article or book under any version of her name I can find. -- Rbellin|Talk 05:14, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Her former work describes her as a "French teacher". The BBC says "French instructor". I initially assumed that the link to her description at the VT French faculty page had quite properly been removed after the shootings, but the Internet Wayback Machine shows that she never had her own faculty page. While the article and several media sources describe her as a "French professor", the discrepancies highlight doubt as to if she had a doctorate. It is thus quite difficult to apply WP:PROF. - BanyanTree 05:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(𒁳) 22:40, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

* Delete and redirect to List of victims of Virginia Tech massacre page. Though I disagree with most of the proposed deletions of the prod-happy people who have proposed deletion on just about everything else having to do with the shootings outside the main article itself, in this case I find that unlike three other profs who died there who have their own articles, Ms. Couture-Nowak does not have sufficient notability per WP:BIO to warrant her own article, & is sufficiently covered in the List of victims article. --Yksin 18:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. On further reading of WP:BIO criteria for notability (which of course are just a guideline anyway, not a policy, & currently much disputed), I have decided to change my vote back to keep. Regardless of how "notable" she was by those criteria prior to her death, the circumstances of her death may render her notable in a manner beyond simple memorialization. Some recent coverage has indicated that her actions when her class was under attack are also worthy of note. --Yksin 19:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, our notability policy says that 'Notable is defined as "worthy of being noted" or "attracting notice"; it is not synonymous with "fame" or "importance".' and '"A notable topic has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works that are reliable and independent of the subject."' By the literal wording of the policy, she's in fact notable, despite not being famous or important, because there are articles about her. The policy is just broken. Ken Arromdee 13:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is a good point. I ran up against a similar problem a few months ago while trying to have Al Gore III deleted. Like many of the VT victims, he hasn't really done anything notable himself, but he attracted independent media attention anyway for reasons beyond his control (i.e. the identity of his father). -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 13:36, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Participating in the establishment of a public school? No, not enough. And "courageous actions"? She was gunned down and there is no basis for saying that she saved anyone. Sorry, she is just a victim.Medico80 00:45, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay - I'm pretty new to this (and excited to learn and be a part of the wikipedia community), so I don't know all the ins and outs of what would be 'notable' enough and such - When I read "instrumental in establishing", it seems a bit more than just "participating"..?.. The 'courageous actions' part, I was going from what I read in the current article about her trying to save her students and losing her life in the process... Justanothermutt 00:57, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

keep it, change it, take the facts of her life accomplishments and write a good article about the lady who started a french school in what was once Acadia and is now Nova Scotia. look at it closely

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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