The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. This discussion isn't going anywhere and reading the arguments for and against I see that no consensus has been reached nor do I see one forming. J04n(talk page) 11:50, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

List of deceased American comic book characters[edit]

List of deceased American comic book characters (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Delete. This topic is not useful. Accuracy is not possible because death is inconsistent in comic books, for reasons that include resurrections, reboots, retcons, alternate universes, alternate timelines, hoaxes, dreams, imaginary stories, cliffhangers, editorial edicts, and outright errors. For example, characters that died before DC Comics did their New 52 reboot are still dead in the pre-New 52 version of reality but are not dead in the one getting currently published in most common books. A few stories since that reboot, however, are apparently set in the pre-New 52 reality. Arnold Wesker is still dead in several versions of reality but not in New 52. I could go on and on with examples that probably won't mean much to most of you. We're not supposed to focus on "now" when writing about fiction anyway. We cannot list every character that ever died because all DC Comics and Marvel Comics characters have died before. We have already discussed this on the WikiProject Comics talk page[1]. Those of us who talked about this all agreed the page needs to be deleted. Nobody has objected to this plan. Doczilla _STOMP! 07:18, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. As Doczilla points out, death is a nebulous concept in comic books, so this list is pretty much unmaintainable. DoctorKubla (talk) 08:21, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete It's not really an encyclopedic topic, since it's so subject to change and there's little value in recording people who died but returned to life due to its commonness. There's a related article Comic book death which is problematic (though perhaps salvagable), indicating that the topic as a whole may not be notable. --Colapeninsula (talk) 10:35, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment see previous AfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of dead comic book characters. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:07, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete: unsustainable, non-notable in the world at large and in the context of comic books, ultimately trivial. Where exceptions arise which are "real world notable," they can be glossed at comic book death (e.g. Jean Grey, Superman).Zythe (talk) 13:43, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Keep - This definitely needs restructuring at the very least. But AfD is not cleanup. There have been very poignant deaths in comics, some with long term repercussions, and particularly those which have been commented on in secondary sources. Barry Allen and Kara in Crisis on Infinite Earths, and Superman in Superman #75, come immediately to mind. No we shouldn't be listing the mass of merry go round deaths and resurrections. But we shouldn't be removing this topic altogether either. - jc37 17:59, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Barry, Kara, and Superman all came back to life, though. The article Comic book death can cover those notable deaths. The Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of dead comic book characters discussion took place before DC's Blackest Night, Marvel's Chaos War, and then DC's New 52 reboot made comic book death more nebulous than ever before. Doczilla _STOMP! 19:02, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And per WP:SS, those (Barry, Kara, etc.) should be able to be spun off into a separate list page in the future, if wanted/needed. But at that point, some ruleslawyer will try to suggest that such a list could not exist per this afd. There should be no prejudice against such a list.

Also, it doesn't matter if the character eventually someday was brought back to life (not uncommon in fiction, especially in the sci-fi, fantasy, and horror genres), what is being discussed is the death of the character.

Otherwise, I entirely agree with what you just said : ) - jc37 19:21, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There might well be a case for a list of notable comic book deaths, spun out from the comic book death article, but that's not what this list is. This is a list of every character who is "currently" dead. It's a completely different thing. DoctorKubla (talk) 22:05, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's because the sheer volume of publication deaths, and their reversals, is highly notable in comics through aggregation. King Zeal 23:04, 28 January 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.253.124.35 (talk)

• Strong Keep. The list is sustainable, even if difficult. The main criteria for "death" is removal from publication with death being the cited as the cause. For example, Norman Osborn was revealed to have never died twenty years after he was last published as "dead". On the other hand, Katherine Kane "died" for only one issue and was immediately brought back. Per standard of the article, that is not sufficient. Likewise, hoaxes, all just a dream, clone, and alternate universe resolutions to the issue all count if the character was still removed from publication. The only real sketchy issue is when a character dies and comes back within the same storyline. In some cases (as in the aforementioned Kathy Kane), this violates the point of the article because her death did not remove her from publication. In the case of Booster Gold, he is an exception because although he was brought back within the same story via hoax, the writers have gone on record to state that his death was meant to be seen as permanent. And that's the difference. King Zeal 19:26, 28 January 2013
• Delete - There is a difference between this list and the parent article Comic book death (Though that article may be better titled Death as a trope in comic books, but that's a different issue). Death as a trope is notable, it's something that there are secondary sources on it. Up to and including what are solid examples of how the trope is applied.
  A list of "Comic book characters killed off to be retired from publication" isn't notable and can verge on trivial and/or OR. In the first instance, a number of characters have been introduced to be killed off or brought back for a one panel death scene. In the second, short of a secondary source, we're assuming that's the reason the character is being killed off. Even using the current title as a template lends itself to trivia and OR since a death scene is an assumed death - the intent of the writer could be the character is now a corpse, or it could be a feint. The difference isn't known until the writer finishes their story, if they finish it.
  One other thing nags at me - any criteria we put on the list related to the primary sourcing means that we as editors have to evaluate the inclusion. That is original research, and maybe worse, research by consensus.
  - J Greb (talk) 02:44, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any indication that what you stated is actually a problem? One-panel deaths, fake-outs, and ambiguities are left off the article, and when, added, are promptly removed. King Zeal 23:04, 28 January 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.253.124.35 (talk)

inclusion criteria (and removal from publication with death being the cited as the cause appear a good criterium) the sustainability concerns appear fixable. Cavarrone (talk) 22:23, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comic book characters do not get removed from publication upon death. Appearances can become less frequent, but not necessarily. Some actually show up more often after death (e.g., Anton Arcane) and not just in flashbacks or stories set before they died. That criterion does not work. Dead is not dead in comic books.

Besides, a fictional character is neither alive nor dead anyway. It never lived. We can only call it dead or alive from an in-universe perspective. We're supposed to write about fiction in present tense anyway. Each fictional character is both dead and alive because the stories where it lives exist just as much as the stories where it's dead. Other articles on "current" status of fictional characters get deleted, articles that don't have such nebulous topics where a character's current status can be alive in several versions of the story history but dead in numerous others. Doczilla _STOMP! 00:32, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That violates the spirit of "death" as meant by the article. "Death" in comics is a catch-all term that simply means "removal from publication in current status quo". It's not "death" in the sense of other media, but that's exactly what makes it so significant. Death is overused in comics to the point that the number of characters that have been through it disqualify it from any sort of meaning. However, it is nigh-impossible for NON-comics fans to keep track of who has died, is dead, and various. For example, if someone hasn't read an issue of Superman in more than 20 years, they will have no idea that Maxima, Jean Grey, or Nova are currently out of publication; two o them having been so for close to or over a decade. This list is an easy fix to that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by King Zeal (talk • contribs)

I don't understand. What do Jean Grey and Nova (comics) have to do with Superman? Superman is a DC comic. Jean Grey and Nova (whichever Nova you are referring to) are Marvel comics characters. They wouldn't normally appear in the same comic book with Superman anyway. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 03:08, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. ★☆ DUCKISPEANUTBUTTER☆★ 15:56, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. ★☆ DUCKISPEANUTBUTTER☆★ 15:56, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. ★☆ DUCKISPEANUTBUTTER☆★ 15:56, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong keep Not so much so as to whether it can be maintained, but whether you bother to try and maintain it. It is a useful list; if a character is "dead" in some versions but "alive" in some others, then just add a simple hat note as to which version he's "alive" or "dead" in. Bonkers The Clown (Nonsensical Babble) 13:42, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep, "not useful" and "unsustainable" are not convincing arguments for a deletion, and never were. As we have clear and not confusing inclusion criteria (and removal from publication with death being the cited as the cause appear a good criterium) the sustainability concerns appear fixable. Cavarrone (talk) 22:23, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per nom. As these are fictional characters, "death" does not have the same permanence or definitiveness as the death real-life actual individuals. Nornan Osborn is dead in the Spider-Man films, but not in the Marvel Universe stories, and I have no idea what his status is in stories set in the Ultimate Marvel imprint. Furthermore, fiction does not have to follow a linear progression of time. There are key characters from Watchmen that die during that series, but as of right now DC is publishing Before Watchmen, a set of prequel miniseries where those characters are portrayed as living. I can't see the encyclopedic value of maintaining such a list. WesleyDodds (talk) 09:13, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it's fair to count dead film characters here (considering the Marvel Cinematic Universe has absolutely no relation to the actual comic series it is only inspired upon.) Bonkers The Clown (Nonsensical Babble) 09:27, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It was more the first analogy that popped into my mind. In any event, the fictional character Norman Osborn is neither dead and not dead, for he is a fictional character. WesleyDodds (talk) 09:44, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete The policy-based reasoning here is WP:NOTPLOT. Should we have a list of dead comic book characters? No more than we should have a list of television characters that have sneezed. The list is essentially WP:NOTDIR, and seems to fall under #7 applied to lists, i.e. List of X that Y, list of comic book characters that died. The topic is adequately covered, with notable instances, in comic book death. --Odie5533 (talk) 03:46, 3 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Possibly, possibly something that could be used as a tightly-defined and well-patrolled category, but not a list. Probably the only comic book characters for whom being dead is intristic to their characterisation are Uncle Ben and Deadman. Everybody else uses their Mortality Deferment Cards with dizzying speed. SOME DON'T EVEN TAKE THE TIME TO STICK AROUND FOR TEA. HEATHENS. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 11:17, 4 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep citing similar reasons for why Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of dead comic book characters resulting in a keep. Tiggerjay (talk) 04:44, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The main reason cited in the closing statement of that discussion does not apply here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 10:24, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- Patchy1 REF THIS BLP 13:42, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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• Keep, but Rename information is sourceable, and at least a dozen or more instances are notable, and the inclusion criteria are definable. However, keeping track of who is "actually dead" is impossible, as none of them are "actually dead", just not being used by the companies currently (the only way a character could truly die is if the copyright holder barred their use and insisted the character be killed off, which even then could be reversed by them, and would expire in a century or so). What is true is that each of these characters has "died", whatever that means in comic land (see deadman, warlock, various robots, etc). so, rename to List of American comic book characters who have died. That way, the list never has items removed, just added, with reincarnations added as useful addenda when it happens. We could also limit the list to those characters covered by independent media, but thats too much to ask of the crufty articles on comics we have (yes, thats snark).Mercurywoodrose (talk) 05:07, 7 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

List of American comic book characters who have died would be the exact equivalent of List of American comic book characters. All of them have died at some point. DoctorKubla (talk) 08:36, 7 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please justify your "all', which I believe is a generalization. Take for example, the Watchers. Have they died? Same goes for Zatanna, Luke Cage, etc. Bonkers The Clown (Nonsensical Babble) 11:57, 7 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, they have all died and come back to life several times. For example, in Marvel Comics, the entire world has been destroyed and then restored several times, sometimes fixed through time travel. Eternity once destroyed the planet Earth and, instead of restoring it, created a duplicate Earth to replace it, leaving only Doctor Strange knowing that everybody around him was a copy. Between that and Marvel's "The Other" story, Peter Parker was already a copy of a copy even before his most recent death while mind-swapped with Dr. Octopus. Every single Marvel and DC character has died on other occasions as well. They die individually, they die in massacres, and they keep coming back. Except for a few who just haven't been around long and probably aren't notable yet, you can't name a Marvel or DC character who has never died. You just can't. Thanos killed half the universe with the Infinity Gauntlet, and soon he killed the remaining half of Earth's heroes. Korvac killed the Avengers and the Guardians of the Galaxy, then sacrificed himself resurrecting them. Cary Bates killed the Justice Society, then the Spectre brought them back to life. The Justice League died in the JLA "Obsidian Age" storyline. The examples can go on and on.

To address one of the specific examples in (Nonsensical Babble)'s question: Zatanna dies in Flashpoint, then get resurrected by the creation of the New 52. Doczilla _STOMP! 22:48, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps a soft-redirect is in order! --Odie5533 (talk) 11:21, 7 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per WP:LISTN - it's clear that the notability of the list as a group is well established, as the numerous editors linking to Comic book death prove. As for the claims that it's against WP:NOTPLOT, they are moot; the policy requires that Wikipedia treats the significance and reception of the works, something that the comic book death article does in thorough and the list lead repeats in place. Per WP:PAGEDECIDE and WP:SPLIT, that encyclopedic coverage of the topic doesn't need to occur in just one page to comply with the plot requirements; the structuring of content should be what betters allows us to explain the topic. A main article describing the concept of comic book death and a separate list of characters affected by it seems a good structure, much better than the alternative to have everything on the same page.

It's clear that Wikipedia as a whole is providing the desired context for these characters, so a list of significant characters that are examples of the notable topic is compliant with WP:LISTPURP, WP:notability, and every kind of content that WP:NOT allows us to keep. I may agree to establish a more detailed inclusion criterion, but AfD is not cleanup - an slightly fuzzy criterion is no reason to delete the whole thing. Diego (talk) 22:30, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This list is not a logical extension of comic book death. If it was – if the article was called "List of notable comic book deaths" – I'd probably argue for it to be kept. But what we're discussing is a list of currently dead comic book characters. The notability of such a list is not established, and making the inclusion criteria stricter wouldn't help, because the basic problem is that the inclusion criteria doesn't make sense. Characters in a work of fiction cannot be "currently" dead. DoctorKubla (talk) 08:31, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, J04n(talk page) 11:58, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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• Comment The sheer number of characters who have died in mainstream universes, elseworlds, and various other continuities is uncountable. How do you determine what should be listed in this? The entire article would reek of recentism, and other would end up being quite large if you were to list every death, and every death that was reversed. Not every character's death is notable enough to warrant inclusion, and those that do, seem to be already included in Comic book death. I personally feel that if such a listing is needed for dead characters, and resurrected characters, it would work better as a category. "Comic book characters who have died", "Comic book characters who have been resurrected", each split into DC, Marvel, Image, etc. Though, neither category or lists are a necessity. || Tako (talk) 18:12, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - I made a backup of this article on wikialpha.org, for anyone who is interested. Mathewignash (talk) 23:15, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.