The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. The current state of an article is not necessarily dispositive as to its status in an AFD nomination. A consensus seems to have formed here that the article may need to go in a different direction, but that can be resolved through the editing process. After a relist and sufficient discussion, I am closing this as a "keep" and encourage interested editors to continue to work on improvements as necessary. GoPhightins! 01:14, 10 March 2021 (UTC) GoPhightins! 01:14, 10 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
this seems completely trivial and pointless and WP:NOT. Should we also have List of television programs with blondes list of television programs where an accountant appears at least once? CUPIDICAE💕 15:58, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It would be more relevant if this was a list of shows about ninjas, not an indiscriminate list of everytime a ninja has ever appeared on television. This list is nothing more than fancruft. CUPIDICAE💕 16:13, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It is first and foremost a list of shows about ninjas. All of the series are ninja series. Non-ninja series featuring ninja episodes being included does not diminish the value of the list. Just as is the case with List of vampire television series.Chanbara (talk) 16:17, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It seems likely that we can support a list of ninja tv shows, but the framing as The following is a list of television series, episodes, and commercials where at least one ninja character appears as a significant plot element. is too indiscriminate. Likewise including a bunch of poorly sourced, non-notable examples. If the list were pruned, would it be better to keep on its own or merge back into ninjas in popular culture? — Rhododendritestalk \\ 16:34, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The framing could be changed to The following is a list of ninja television series, episodes, and commercials., as this is what it is. The list of ninja commercials could be moved back to the main article as a separate category. As far as individual ninja episodes, I believe it has significance just like a one-shot TV movie does (and also in terms of popular culture), but I suppose those could be separate, which I guess would leave this as a List of ninja television series. Sourcing can always be improved upon as new information is found (along with linking to new Wikipedia pages). Most Japanese series have Japanese Wikipedia pages which could be linked to as well when an English page doesn't exist.Chanbara (talk) 17:02, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'd want to see sources covering episodes as a group and commercials (?!) as a group. — Rhododendritestalk \\ 17:33, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure what you mean by "group", but pretty much all of the ninja commercials are sourced to YouTube videos of them. These were included in the ninja Television list but they could certainly be moved back to the main article as a separate category of Ninja in popular culture.Chanbara (talk) 17:40, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia doesn't cover things just because they exist. We shouldn't have any lists based just on a common theme identified by a wikipedia contributor, sources only to the things themselves. I think it's highly likely that independent reliable sources have discussed ninjas in movies and probably ninjas on tv (perhaps both together), but I would be surprised to see individual tv episodes covered as a group, and shocked by sourcing about ninja commercials. Further reading: WP:SALAT, WP:CSC, WP:NLIST... — Rhododendritestalk \\ 17:57, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well, a number of articles in martial arts magazines in the 1980s covered the history of ninja in movies and on TV and they did include individual TV episodes such as Kung Fu - "The Assassin" and others... As far as commercials go, these were examples already listed on the main Ninja in popular culture article, which is why I included them when creating the list page, but, as I already stated, these don't need to be included here. Side note: this may or may not be relevant to the discussion, but recently FROM PARTS BEYOND publisher included these and more on his "How Ninja Conquered the World" timeline: https://vintageninja.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/VintageNinjaTimeline-%C2%A9KeithRainville-V1.3opt.pdfChanbara (talk) 18:19, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I found one of the numerous magazine articles where films, TV series, and yes, individual TV episodes are discussed together. The article was entitled "THE NINJA: AMERICA'S SINISTER NEW HERO by Lucille Tajiri". It was first published in the August 1981 issue of MARTIAL ARTS MOVIES magazine, and later re-published in the September 1984 issue of INSIDE KUNG FU Presents THE MASTER NINJA: WARRIOR OF THE NIGHT magazine. It's a pretty lengthy article but here are some of the more noteworthy passages from it:
"For those of you who aren't familiar with the ninja or falsely believe that he exists only in Japanese chanbara movies, you skeptics who doubt that the ninja is alive and well and living in America, just consider The Octagon, Shogun, Shogun Assassin, Enter the Ninja, The Ninja, Revenge of the Ninja and Shinobi. These are films that Western audiences have either already seen or soon will see in their neighborhood theaters in the months to come. All of these movies have scenes of, or are entirely based on, the ninja and ninjutsu, "the art of invisibility", "the art of stealth"."
"There can be no doubt that American Cinema's The Octagon, with it's formidable ninja training fortress, and NBC-TV's Shogun, which incorporated several ninja incidents, also paved the way for heartland America's acceptance of an art which, with its cloak of mysticism and aura of the occult, goes one step beyond most people's concept of the martial arts. But even predating this exposure, the art of ninjutsu was featured in the early 1970s on the once-popular Kung Fu television series, when Robert Ito (Sam in Quincy) played a crippled servant throughout three-quarters of the episode, only to surprise audiences by suddenly dropping his disguise and transforming into a dangerous, shuriken-throwing death machine doing battle against the inscrutable Caine. Delving back even further into the dusty archives, ninja first appeared on the international large screen in the 1967 James Bond thriller You Only Live Twice when 007 joined forces with a band of Japanese ninja agents to overthrow a villain of super-evil magnitude. Incidentally, Sho Kosugi (the black ninja in Enter the Ninja) says that the ninja scenes in the Bond escapade were especially memorable to residents of Osaka, Japan. It seems that in their fervor for authenticity, the Bond ninja left behind shuriken holes in the sacred, but wooden walls of Osaka castle."
P.S. I'm sure I can find more of these articles in my old magazines if need be.Chanbara (talk) 17:47, 22 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Revised the lead to better reflect the content and moved the commercials list back to the main article Ninja in popular culture.Chanbara (talk) 00:04, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep the article as valid, despite what the nominator says, and just edit it to only include things with specific criteria. Must be a show about ninja, or with at least one ninja as a main character. DreamFocus 01:17, 27 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel (talk) 12:03, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The deletion rationale seems very much WP:IDONTLIKEIT and doesn't argue why television programs about ninja are not notable, but List of ninja films somehow is. I am inclined to say that it should be cleaned up per WP:SURMOUNTABLE to remove any and all instances where the program is not directly about ninja, such as Naruto, and instead only features a ninja as an enemy or bit part.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 20:27, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - though I kind of understand your points, it is definitely notable and valid enough to be an article. Foxnpichu (talk) 21:10, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, but move to List of television shows about ninja and purge non-notable entries. No opinion on whether we should list episodes. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:08, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete a pure TNT delete; this is a reasonable topic for an article. However, it is indiscriminate (do we need to list an episode of Looney Tunes with a ninja) and over 80 percent of the references are to www.thetvdb.com (which is user-generated content) or www.tvdrama-db.com (which is in Japanese, but I believe is UGC as well). power~enwiki (π, ν) 02:35, 8 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
On second thought, there may be enough for an article after dropping the references and individual episodes, as people seem willing to try this Draftify is more appropriate than Delete. I am slightly worried that G.I. Joe is considered a "ninja" series, though, neither the Wikipedia articles nor the TVDB articles support that (though there is an unexplained Category:Ninja in fiction on G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero (1983 TV series)). power~enwiki (π, ν) 02:52, 8 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.