- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. I would suggest Thittuvilai's status addressed before this returns to AfD given its viability as a potential target Star Mississippi 00:58, 3 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Marthal (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: More discussion surrounding this article's subject's relationship with Thittuvilai would be helpful in determining whether there's a suitable ATD.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 03:40, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Merge? You can find it on Google maps. It does seem to now be a neighbourhood of Thittuvilai. You can also spot most of the mentioned landmarks. Most of the article are things that are nearby, which is just as relevant to the larger town. - SimonP (talk) 19:49, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- It is not a neighbourhood of Thittuvilai. And Thittuvilai is not a town. Neither this article nor your merge target are a village or a town, and both articles are misleading. The town here is Boothapandi (also spelled Bhuthapandy and Boothapandy), which is a town panchayat of Kanyakumari district according to the Census of India. It is not a panchayat union of villages, but a single statutory town. The Census divides it into 15 wards. The nominator is quite right. This whole thing is some counter-factual, perhaps nostalgic, wishful thinking from 2007. Uncle G (talk) 09:39, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Thittuvilai is very obviously a distinct settlement and is recognised as such, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Per WP:GEOLAND, Thittuvilai very clearly qualifies for an article (as a "populated, legally recognized place") even if Marthal doesn't. We also have to remember that if these settlements were ever recognised in their history then they also qualify per GEOLAND; it doesn't just apply to the present day. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:46, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Your statement is contradicted by the Census of India. It's authoritative. You are not, nor is your bare assertion supported by anything at all. The place where this is is Boothapandi, and it is divided into wards, not villages. There is no legal recognition for either of these claimed villages. Uncle G (talk) 01:35, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- And I assume you've gone back through all the previous censuses and other documents to check whether these clearly separate settlements have ever been acknowledged as villages have you? Because, as I have pointed out, notability is not temporary. If they were ever accepted as villages then they meet WP:GEOLAND. And I'd be extremely surprised if they weren't. In fact, I'd be extremely surprised if they weren't now, despite what your beloved Census of India may say. Because I know from my own country that just because a village or hamlet may not today be a parish in its own right does not mean it never was or that it isn't still a recognised settlement within another parish. -- Necrothesp (talk) 17:13, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel (talk) 21:04, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- leaning delete It appears that Marthal is a something, but at this point all of us appear to be just reading maps. Right now the only verifiable and non-trivial information in the article is the names of the two churches, which I can (if I believe it) get from GMaps, but while the river encircling the place provides a natural division, it doesn't mean the humans respected that. It could be part of Thittuvilai, or maybe not; it could be part of something larger. We need sourcing. Meanwhile, I could justifiably delete every line of the article for lack of same.
More and more I'm finding WP:TNT to be the solution to articles like this. If someone comes along with decent sourcing that characterizes the place clearly, and recreates the article with citations, nobody is going to move to delete it. Mangoe (talk) 21:10, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- I and the nominator are the only ones not reading maps, I think. I'm reading the Census of India, which I checked to check out the nominator's claim. And xe's right. The town where this supposed village is, that occupies the very space pointed to, and its 15 wards are on page 296 of that part of the Census, which covers Kanyakumari district. There are no villages inside town panchayats. There is no village of Thittuvilai. There is no village of Marthal. Here's another list of the 95 panchayat villages in Kanyakumari. No Thittuvilai nor Marthal there. The map-readers going on about legal recognition are looking at a place that is legally recognized as Boothapandi TP. Uncle G (talk) 01:35, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- There is a placed called "Thittuvilai" in Kanyakumari district. [1] The heading on [2] reads "Tamil Nadu Government Cooperative Department, Kanyakumari District, Name of the Society : Y.61 Thetuvilai Primary Agriculture Cooperative Credit Society, Beneficiaries Eligible for Tamil Nadu Government Loan Waiver Scheme 2021". Jeraxmoira🐉 (talk) 05:09, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Redirect/Merge to Thittuvilai. A settlement not being listed in the latest census is not per se a reason for deletion and does not necessarily imply a named settlement has no legal recognition at the date of the latest census nor in prior censuses. Because a settlement's local government is within a separately named place shouldn't be interpreted that the named settlement doesn't exist. Reliable maps can be used for verification, but not notability. Thittuvilai is the village used for this survey [3] and mentioned, if not more here:[4] and in many other books, so could likely pass the coverage requirements of the GNG. Haven't found anything of note on Marthal though and so may not pass the GNG or have presumed notability. For this reason a redirect/merge to the adjoining settlement of Thittuvilai may be the best solution — at least the name Marthal is included as part of the name for the churches etc so is a valid search term. Rupples (talk) 09:02, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete. Given how readily Google et al scrape WP geo material for use in maps and other resources, an article on a topic where the only sources seem to be online maps is likely either already circularly-referenced or in danger of solidifying inaccurate/misinterpreted info on the internet.
- JoelleJay (talk) 03:49, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Online maps are not the only sources. Middle Marthal and South Marthal are the names of part of Ward No. 1 within Boothapandi Town Panchayat per the Tamil Nadu Government Gazette (page 164).[5] (Couldn't gain access to this doc earlier so only able to put it up now). This Google Street View image shows the school with the name Marthal appended.[6] The image reference link includes coordinates. I take it that the Street View coordinates are accurate. The school is listed in this issue of the Government Gazette [7] at page 197, entry no.4 with the place name Marthal. Other schools on the page also have their place names noted. Rupples (talk) 11:50, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.