The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. I see a consensus to Keep this article. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:02, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Messhof (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Fails notability for a biography. See talk page for prior discussion, I think anything relevant here is feasible to merge into the game articles. IgelRM (talk) 16:23, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People and Video games. IgelRM (talk) 16:23, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Messhof is a single game dev, so the article passes the subject-specific notability criteria at WP:NARTIST. He "has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work". He has several independently notable games, and Ghost Bike is also likely to be notable upon release. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 19:28, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  A "single game dev" exception seems arbitrary. What specifically, a collective body of work? I can see Nidhogg as a two part series but Ghostbike would appear independent and WP:TOOSOON. I would create a category with the game articles. IgelRM (talk) 13:47, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Looking for "Mark Essen" instead of "Messhof" I have found dozens of articles about how he has been one of the few game devs to be recognized as an artist by the art establishment with his games being placed in various art galleries. This also passes the criteria "The person's work (or works) has: (a) become a significant monument, (b) been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) won significant critical attention, or (d) been represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums." ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 22:20, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Did Messhof get significant coverage at those exhibitions? "Recognition" would fit for Video games as an art form but I don't think they pass the criteria. IgelRM (talk) 17:39, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  @IgelRM, the rule of thumb we typically use for creators is "two or more independently notable works". Basically, if there's only one notable work, we could easily add the biographical detail to that article rather than having a separate creator article. If there's more than one, or there's just so much coverage about both creator and work, then it makes more sense to have multiple authors. Since we have Nidhogg (video game), Nidhogg 2, and Flywrench, it's more convenient to have a separate article for the creator. -- asilvering (talk) 02:06, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  With that role of thumb, I think e.g. every game director at Nintendo would be notable. IgelRM (talk) 17:23, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  If every game director at Nintendo was a solo game dev, yes, they would be. However, they are not. -- asilvering (talk) 00:31, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: Well, source 3 is two photos and captions, nothing extensive. Source 7 is mainly an interview with this person; rest used in the article are only mentions of this person... Oaktree b (talk) 22:59, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete: I don't find anything else about this person that isn't already in the article, and the sources aren't all about this person, or are trivial coverage. Just not enough to prove notability. Oaktree b (talk) 23:01, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. The subject's works are clearly the focus of multiple, reliable, independent sources, passing the general notability guideline as a creator. Our articles on his works (Nidhogg (video game), Flywrench, Nidhogg 2) each have sources covering his role in creating them. Additionally, reliable sources have also covered his other works not independently notable, such as Punishment 2[1] and Ghost Bike[2][3]. There is enough reliable source coverage of these other games that they wouldn't fit in an existing article and so the developer's own article is a natural place to cover them. czar 02:58, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per Czar. --Un assiolo (talk) 20:26, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Pro forma note that Czar is the article creator. What I get out of the rockpapershotgun article is that Messhof created freeware games prior to Nidhogg with a similar aesthetic. IgelRM (talk) 13:42, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I also wrote the GA for Nidhogg (video game). Yes, the detail of those freeware games and the background on what became his most notable games are what justifies an independent article to house those details. czar 04:39, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Yeah; I guess I am being bold here, you have more editing experience than me. Right now, the details are basically only the game names, not even release years.

Edit: Hhm, if it wasn't structured as a bio and incorporated Flywrench, maybe it would make sense to me. IgelRM (talk) 18:41, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep, as a WP:NARTIST pass, see my reply to IgelRM above. -- asilvering (talk) 02:08, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.