The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was move to Inherited accessory nail of the fifth toe. Suppressing redirect during move. No opinion on the specific title, and further name changes can be discussed elsewhere Fritzpoll (talk) 06:50, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mongoloid cuticle[edit]

Mongoloid cuticle (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

This is not a phrase I can find in any sources. The sources given are all in Chinese and according to the talk page would fail our WP:RS criteria. It may be a hoax, it certainly seems to fail our notability guidelines and verifiability policy. Dougweller (talk) 07:36, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mongolian spot is an accepted medical fact. Epicanthal fold is an accepted medical fact. Mongoloid cuticle appears not to be. WWGB (talk) 10:46, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This does not mean that it is a hoax. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email guestbook complaints 12:27, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

1. http://koudai.360.cn/u/19377718/article_143411183.html?s=y - This is an article, non-blog, non-forum. Quote:

导游会问你的左脚的小脚指甲有无分岔？据说有分岔的人，都是从山西迁徙出去的。汉人小脚拇指的指甲盖，通常分裂为两半。不过两半不成比例，

Rough translation by Google Translate:

Ask your guides left bifurcation any small toenail? Bifurcation is said to have people who are migrating away from the Shanxi Province. Han Chinese bound feet thumb nail covers, are usually split into two halves. But in two out of proportion

Important section noted in bold.

2. http://www.360doc.com/content/090317/12/116177_2833073.html - This is also an article, non-blog, non-forum. Quote:

民族大融合后的汉人的脚指头，小拇指的指甲盖，通常分裂为两半。不过两半不成比例，一半大得多，一半很少，不注意是很难发现的,而且男左女右。异民族的脚趾的小拇指头，则是完整光滑的一块。

Google Translate:

After the national integration of the Chinese脚指头,小拇指cover the nail, usually split into two halves. However, out of proportion in two, half is much greater, half small, pay no attention to it is very difficult to find, and男左女右. Toes of different ethnic groups小拇指first, it is a smooth complete.

See bold. Regards, -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email guestbook complaints 11:11, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict):::Something that exists in the areas the article claims it does should certainly have non-Chinese sources describing it, and I am very surprised that it has no English-language sources if there is medical literature in any other language. And as you claim the epicanthic fold and the Mongolian spot are distinguishing features of the alleged 'Mongoloid race', and yet they clearly are not as they are found in people's that are not classified as Mongolian, I'm even more dubious about where you are getting your information. I don't see how stubbifying it helps except of course my points about the epicanthic fold and Mongoloid spot no longer apply. Let's let the process unfold, people have 7 days to make their comments. Start by finding acceptable sources for the phrase 'Mongoloid cuticle'. Dougweller (talk) 11:35, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't necessarily have to be called that. What it is called is not the main issue here. The main issue is whether it exists or not, and how one can prove its existence, through reliable sources. We can figure out the name dispute afterwards, that is the minor, insignificant issue. Right now, I shall find sources to prove its existence. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email guestbook complaints 11:38, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and I hope you are not saying that you wish to demolish the entire article just because of its name, are you? "Mongoloid cuticle" is probably not the official name in English, that is just a direct translation from the Chinese term "蒙古人种指甲", we can decide what to call it afterwards. My priority is the article itself, not what it should be called. Within seven days I can prove its existence using acceptable sources, however I cannot guarantee the name. It's not that I am desperate or anything, it is just that I am able to prove what it is and leave it to remain as a stubbified article. I just require time. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email guestbook complaints 11:42, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
QUOTE: "And as you claim the epicanthic fold and the Mongolian spot are distinguishing features of the alleged 'Mongoloid race', and yet they clearly are not as they are found in people's that are not classified as Mongolian, I'm even more dubious about where you are getting your information." I hope you shall be kind enough to eat your own words. Original line from article: "The Mongoloid cuticle is one of a few distinguishing features of the Mongoloid race." Note that I did not say that they must be mongoloid, as you have interpreted it. These traits are commonly found in Mongoloids, that does not equate to "therefore all XYZ must be Mongoloids". Quote from Mongolian spot article: "Mongolian spots are most prevalent among Mongols, Turks, and other Asian groups, such as the Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans. Nearly all East Asian infants are born with one or more Mongolian spots. It is also common if only one of the parents is East Asian...The incidence among caucasians from Europe is between 1-10%." It does not contradict with my statement; it is common in East Asians and uncommon in Europeans. I never said that it did not occur in Europeans, I never used the exact words. Distinguishing features include those that are common in one place but not another. Refer to black corn and yellow corn; both occur everywhere, but in different proportions. Note that in Mongoloid race, Native Americans are classified as "Mongoloid". Quote from Mongolian spot article: "A Mongolian spot (also called a mongolian fleck, mongolian blue spot or congenital dermal melanocytosis) is a benign flat congenital birthmark with wavy borders and irregular shape, most common among East Asians and Turks, and named after Mongolians. It is also extremely prevalent among East Africans, Polynesians, and Native Americans." Am I incorrect? Similarly, Quote from Epicanthal fold: "The epicanthic fold occurs commonly in people of Central Asian, East Asian and Southeast Asian descent as a result of adaptive significance." The word "common" is used, not "exclusively", which also does not contradict to what I have said. You have also said QUOTE: "distinguishing features of the alleged 'Mongoloid race'" Why do you use quotes? Why do you use "alleged"? Have a look at Mongoloid race, a concept in which I did not invent. Your word structures appear as if I said I saw a UFO. Right now I don't take any offense at that, but from now on, please watch how you use your words. QUOTE: "Something that exists in the areas the article claims it does should certainly have non-Chinese sources describing it" - a rather eurocentric statement, in which Wikipedia is not. Wikipedia accepts sources from all languages, as long as they can be proved to be reliable. Why are there no detailed English accounts for Wei Guanzhi? or Heshen? or Zhang Hongjing? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email guestbook complaints 11:58, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I use alleged because a lot of scientists don't see any scientific basis for these racial classifications. Since I don't believe these races exist, I use quotation marks, 'alleged', etc. Leaving that aside for the moment, the presence of the epicanthic fold is no guarantee the person belongs to the 'Mongoloid race', ditto the Mongolian spot. Thus they are not distinguishing features.
We can't decide what to call the article, we need to use the term used in the scientific literature. Any language scientific literature, but I still would expect more than Chinese sources can be found if this is a scientifically shown feature. Dougweller (talk) 12:53, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The only English article (i.e. non-forum) that I have found so far that mentions the trait, after two hours of Googling, is [11] which doesn't really seem to be a good source. I'll try for another three hours today before I nod off and sleep. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email guestbook complaints 13:39, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The only results from searching "chinese pinky toenail" are forums, which are not valid sources. I can get better articles in Chinese, but apparently it is not acceptable, something that I don't entirely understand. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email guestbook complaints 13:47, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • What is intended to be described in the article is exactly the same to that described in the paper by Chi, CC and Wang SH. "Mongoloid Culticle" is most probably an incorrect term, not the most correct name in English. The article should be renamed entirely. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email guestbook complaints 12:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for your response. Sounds like a good plan to me. ---kilbad (talk) 15:36, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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