The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. I'm going to close this as no consensus (though with a plurality, but not a consensus for keep). I'm going to add the provision that it should not be renominated for deletion before March 2013. I think we will better equipped to evaluate this article and form a consensus after a sufficient amount of time has passed, a year seems like a suitable period in this instance. henrik•talk 19:22, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Occupy Ashland[edit]

AfDs for this article:
Occupy Ashland (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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The first two deletes were closed as essentially no consensus (the second was withdrawn because people complained it was too soon, even though NC's can be immediately renommed). Since the last nomination, there has been an emerging consensus that small-scale Occupy protests like this one are non-notable. The "wait and see" mentality hasn't given any additional reason to keep; most of the references are news articles. That's not enough to keep; per WP:NOTNEWS. This should be deleted or redirected to List of Occupy movement protest locations in the United States. WP:PRESERVE really isn't applicable here, since there's hardly any content to preserve. Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 23:01, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Oregon-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:17, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:17, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:18, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Actually, As of February 2012, Occupy Ashland continues to engage in organized events and actions.[1][2]
  1. ^ "Occupy Ashland". Occupy Ashland. Retrieved February 23, 2012.
  2. ^ "Occupy Ashland: Actions and News". Webspiritcommunity.com. January 10, 2012. Retrieved February 23, 2012.
—Northamerica1000(talk) 00:32, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Those don't appear to be reliable sources... Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 00:33, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

User is the subject of a SPI discussion Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 23:50, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Um, I seem to recall saying above that there wasn't a consensus in the first two discussions. Furthermore, sufficient time has passed so they can be renominated again even if there wasn't one Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 23:50, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Also, you provide no policy basis for keep, nor a refutation of the extensive deletion rationale. You mostly just attack me for nominating it in the first place Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 23:50, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is nothing to refute, because no actual reason exists for deletion. Newsworthy material of historic importance and interest to our readers is worth preserving. Why on earth would you possibly think removing this content makes sense, but keeping three discussions about that content public is somehow better for civilization? WTF!? --WR Reader (talk) 00:01, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator is the subject of a SPI discussion --WR Reader (talk) 00:07, 24 February 2012 (UTC) SPI discussion speedily closedPurplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 00:10, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Um, whether or not AfD discussions should be kept for posterity is a wholly different matter, but as for whether this should be kept or not, we have two very important guidelines, WP:NOTE and WP:NOT. If an article is something that falls under NOT (of which WP:NOTNEWS is part), it can be deleted. My deletion rationale is that this article is something that falls under NOT. I suggest you familiarize yourself with NOTE and NOT before continuing to participate in deletion discussions. That's all I'll say to you Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 00:08, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
—Northamerica1000(talk) 00:08, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You've perfectly proven why it fails WP:NOTNEWS. The deletion rationale is almost wholly based on NOTNEWS; whether it passes GNG or not is irrelevant. Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 00:10, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Re:The two of you...what about NOT? Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 03:10, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • WHAT source did you look at and HOW did it make it notable? Which notability guideline applies? I could say "The first reference I looked at made it non-notable" if I wanted to. Without any explanation that doesn't mean much. MisterRichValentine (talk) 23:12, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The reference is another news article, again reaffirming my continual point that this fails NOTNEWS... Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 03:31, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note the lack of rating or importance or class was a result of my deleting or changing same from the banners when the article was originally redirected, as seen in the talk page history. I'll restore the ratings. I don't think the lack of ratings, which is a WikiProject thing, is a valid reason for deletion, though I !voted delete myself. Valfontis (talk) 07:12, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not the whole point but yes, was a part of the point. Just illustrative of the point that it isn't much of an article and is unlikely to expand. Thanks!--Amadscientist (talk) 07:18, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, the article has been expanded a great deal today. Northamerica1000(talk) 07:49, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but then that is also a kind of point as well. If this is expanded...then maybe it isn't going to be a historically notable subject over time. while I can certainly appreciate your feeling and desire to save the article I also remeber that you helped save my only Occupy article...Occupy Sacramento and it is even smaller than this one, and has not been expanded. I know it isn't going to be something everyone agrees on....but it is time to start merging and i think we as editors need to start making these tough decisions.--Amadscientist (talk) 08:36, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
One last point and I won't make further comment so others can weigh in, but...I belive we as editors need to step up and help clean up the encyclopedia that may have been cluttered by early enthusiasim that simply didn't translate into fully realized articles. It is our resposibility that the articles are here and we need to weed out what has little to no chance of true expansion.--Amadscientist (talk) 08:53, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Mad, you can't !vote "Keep and Merge". The outcomes are mutually exclusive. If you want content merged to another article, you vote merge. If you want it to stay in the current form Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 23:24, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest you read that again sir. I vote keep for this article and the suggestion of merge is a proposal for after the AFD ends. I also suggest you stop campaigning and allow the community to make this decision. Thanks and happy editing.--Amadscientist (talk) 23:43, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
How does telling you that you can't vote keep and merge amount to campaigning? It doesn't! You've rolled a short-term move and a long-term one into one vote. You can't vote both ways, either vote short-term or long-term. Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 00:27, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever dude. I did it and there is nothing you can do to stop such. I made my choice to Keep and will suggest the article be merged after the AFD closes. Please stop trying to overpower the discussion. You have made your point now please back away slowy from the carcass. Have a nice day.--Amadscientist (talk) 00:59, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Of course one can !vote "keep and merge". In fact, if any content is merged then the article history must be kept for attribution purposes, so merging requires keeping. I think you must be confusing this case with "merge and delete", which is an excluded combination. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:36, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
They are run-of-the-mill, however. Hundreds of cities have had Occupy protests, many at least as big and at least as covered as this one. That doesn't mean we need articles on all of them. I'm also gonna pull the recency card here...similar protests in the past with similar attendance and coverage either would never have articles created, or would have them created and deleted or merged Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 23:24, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
WP:Run-of-the-mill is a personal opinion that has attracted much more opposition than support. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:40, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • How does it meet GNG? Why doesn't NOTNEWSPAPER apply? Why isn't this protest routine? You are making comments but providing no evidence to back them up. MisterRichValentine (talk) 23:12, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • NOTNEWSPAPER is pretty irrelevant when GNG does not apply as it is a special rule to exclude otherwise notable content. GNG qed! As far as why NOTNEWSPAPER does not apply has also been explained. But maybe you need spelling it out. A routine event happens everywhere like the remembrance day parade - every year - every town and always gets newspaper coverage explaining which bigwig laid what size wreath. The comparativly handful occupy protests don't get the matter of fact reporting. Agathoclea (talk) 22:04, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
His general point is that it never was a large protest, and is a very small one in its ongoing nature Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 21:39, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Size is actually one of the more irrelevant categories in regards to a subject. All that matter is the coverage of it, its "notability" and how extensive this coverage is. The mistaken opinion that an event could end also has nothing to do with the current notability and coverage of the subject. SilverserenC 21:45, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you want to nitpick, notability has nothing to do with "current". --Guillaume2303 (talk) 22:36, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't mean current as in breaking news or anything like that, I mean it in terms of "up to this point". All of the coverage up to this point establishes notability, and speculation about whether the protest will continue next week is irrelevant. SilverserenC 23:04, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 15:15, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Re:Seren (and Hoekstra): You're ignoring the recency, NOTNEWS and ONEEVENT problems. There's more than just GNG; something barely passing GNG doesn't mean an automatic keep Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 19:27, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NOTNEWS is a soft redirect to WP:NOTNEWSPAPER which deals specifically with the notability guideline for events which I discuss in the relist comment above. WP:ONEEVENT is deals with biographies for people notable for one event which has no relevance at all at this discussion. So yes, I am ignoring WP:ONEEVENT, because it doesn't apply to this discussion, and no, I'm not ignoring WP:NOTNEWS, in fact, I specifically address that discussion should focus on if it applies, and if it does, if it is met. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 21:20, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) You have a strange definition of what constitutes one event. First off, WP:ONEEVENT applies to people that were involved in an event and this article isn't about a person, so that has no application here. Secondly, WP:NOTNEWS generally applies to breaking news or routine coverage. This article is neither of those. It's a continuous protest action that has been taking place since October and the coverage in a number of different outlets in significant depth is not routine coverage. SilverserenC 21:23, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that's your opinion. You still are failing to address the recency argument (how do we know if it will stand the test of time?); and the fact that a story pops up in the news now and again sounds pretty much like routine coverage to me Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 22:32, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What recency argument? This protest has been going on for five months. Any assumption on whether it will "stand the test of time" is just crystal-balling and has nothing to do with the current coverage of the subject. SilverserenC 02:26, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per the two gentlemen who commented directly above me. I find their arguments persuasive. --Temporary for Bonaparte (talk) 16:49, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

1. There are no sources for this Occupy movement that show that it has enduring historical significance or a significant lasting effect, nor are there sources that show widespread (national or international) impact - These are the two basic criteria for WP:EVENT
2. Between Google news, books, and scholar the only place that this gets hits is news. The news results are all local. If you think books and scholar wouldn't have hts on a protest, then try book-ing or scholar-ing a protest that had lasting historical significance (Tiananmen Square maybe?). People mention protests in books and papers when they are significant.
3. The local news coverage makes it quite clear that this is a run-of-the-mill Occupy protest. There should not be a page for every Occupy protest location, as it is not notable. Take, for example, the article on the 1980 Olympics Soviet vs. United States men's hockey game. There is quite an article on that game, as it had a significant, lasting effect. Notice there is no article on United States vs. Sweden, United States vs. Norway, United States vs. Romania, West Germany vs. Norway, Norway vs. Sweden, etc.. Every match does not meet the requirements to get it's own article, just like every protest under the blanket of a large, international protest does not get its own article
4. Fails WP:GNG, WP:EVENT, WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE per items 1-3
5. Falls under WP:NOTNEWS, WP:GEOSCOPE, WP:NTEMP, WP:NEWSBRIEF per items 1-3. People voting 'keep' have just been saying things like "this is significant, look at all these news stories," but are conveniently ignoring Wikipedia's policies and providing little to no comment on how the policies that the delete-voters are citing.
These things cannot be ignored. This article does not meet notability criteria and should be deleted. MisterRichValentine (talk) 23:00, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1. If that was true, then every event that ever happened that wasn't national or larger wouldn't have an article and that is clearly not true. The Ashland protest has had a significant regional effect, the specifics of how are already presented in the article.
2. Again, this would be saying that all articles that don't have a Google Books or Scholar hit are non-notable, this is very clearly not true. And the news sources are both local, regional, and statewide, along with a fair amount of national/international coverage though things like the Associated Press.
3. An Wikipedia:Other stuff does not exist argument is just as bad as a Other stuff exists argument, when not backed up any meaningful amount. For your example, there's no indication that the other hockey games in that year are non-notable, just that no one's bothered to make an article on them yet and just because the Soviet one got more coverage than the rest doesn't mean the rest are non-notable. The notability of this Occupy location is clearly notable, because of the wide range of coverage from a large number of different outlets at all different layers of size.
4. Clearly it does not, especially not GNG or CONTINUED COVERAGE, as there is significant news coverage that has been as recent as March 4th, continuing since the start of the protest in October.
5. Listing a bunch of policy links is essentially just bashing the discussion with an argument that isn't being filled in with an actual argument. All of the stuff you linked is refuted by the coverage itself. SilverserenC 05:53, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Your counterargument to 1 is very clearly not the case. The content of the article is entirely focused on actions the protestors have taken, and the only impact covered that this specific moment has is an increase in accounts for the local credit union. We can use that as a sentence in another larger piece about the impact of Occupy Wall Street in general. A few news articles do not create notability for this individual event, even with the AP article, since they were clearly using this one movement to illustrate a "typical" Occupy demonstration. The news covers lots of things regularly which do not pass GNG. Trying to say we shouldn't base this decision on the numerous policies in question, in my mind, just proves User:MisterRichValentine's point. —Ed!(talk) 15:50, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually, it's more of the Keeps saying it meets policy and the Deletes saying that it doesn't meet policy. The subject of the article has received continued coverage for a number of months from a bunch of different news outlets of varying scope. All of us that said keep feel that that meets the notability policy. SilverserenC 01:42, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • You just proved my point that you're arguing that GNG trumps everything, and therefore nothing else (like all the stuff Ed and Valentine said) should be considered. GNG does not trump everything else Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 04:16, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • That is clearly not my or anyone's (except 63.3.19.1) argument. There is far more than just GNG that I argued. Though I will note that the SNGs are considered adjunct to GNG, not over it. And the argument for not meeting the Event SNG is pretty flimsy, considering the continued coverage and coverage in numerous outlets. SilverserenC 04:44, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The accusation of bullying is ridiculous. I haven't responded to every editor, nor am I the only editor to comment. It's not an overwhelming majority, nor is it the strongest arguments. I am a bit troubled that half of your contributions on this Wikipedia are keep !votes on AfDs. Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 22:26, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am far more troubled by the beating of a dead horse, repeatedly renominating the same previously kept article for deletion, and if you seriously look at how many times you have commented in this Afd, it goes beyond just making a case. --The Bachmann Editor Overdrive (talk) 22:33, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's 100% perfectly acceptable to renom something that's been closed as no consensus. Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 23:34, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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