The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was move to Microcosm-macrocosm analogy in Jewish philosophy. (non-admin closure) ~ Aseleste (t, e | c, l) 12:27, 20 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Olam katan[edit]

Olam katan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Contested PROD JFW | T@lk 08:09, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. JFW | T@lk 08:09, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Philosophy-related deletion discussions. Apaugasma (talk|contribs) 16:52, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. Apaugasma (talk|contribs) 16:52, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Spirituality-related deletion discussions. Apaugasma (talk|contribs) 16:52, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete and redirect to Microcosm-macrocosm analogy: the term olam katan is the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek term mikros kosmos (Arabic: ʿālam ṣaghīr, Latin: microcosmus or minor mundus, see here), a fact which is also noted in our main article on the subject. Since this concept is widely just called "microcosm" in the scholarly literature, WP:COMMONNAME would in principle call for moving the article to something like "Microcosm-macrocosm analogy in Jewish theology and philosophy". However, it is clearly premature to have a separate article on the subject specifically in Jewish theology and philosophy, when the main article is still only just giving a bare outline (including brief references to the concept in a wide variety of religious and philosophical traditions, among them Rabbinic literature and Jewish philosophy), and when after 16 years the article under discussion is still an unsourced stub . Apaugasma (talk|contribs) 12:58, 12 April 2021 (UTC) New !vote below. Apaugasma (talk|contribs) 14:54, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep We have Wikipedians willing to work out and flesh out this article. Yaakov Wa. (talk) 01:42, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• It would both be possible and desirable to one day have a content fork called Microcosm-macrocosm analogy in Jewish philosophy, just like we could and ideally should have articles called Microcosm-macrocosm analogy in ancient Greek philosophy, Microcosm-macrocosm analogy in Chinese philosophy, etc. However, content forks should not be redundant, and in so far as they are, that does constitute valid grounds for deletion. The user Jfdwolff has pointed to some useful tertiary sources on the microcosm concept in Jewish philosophy, which I've incorporated into the main article. Other, more substantial secondary sources are likely to exist (notability is probably not an issue here), but anyone who is both willing and able to save this article from redundancy should also be able to add some of these secondary sources to the article. In doing this, they would be making sure that the article contains at least some detailed and well-sourced information not present in the main article, thus taking away the currently existing grounds for deletion. Apaugasma (talk|contribs) 16:51, 13 April 2021 (UTC) This is irrelevant now, see below. Apaugasma (talk|contribs) 16:20, 18 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete essentially a dictionary definition. We have an existing article on the actual topic.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:04, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep as creator. There are parallels with microcosm-macrocosm analogy but that article does not include the many specific features of the Jewish concept, such as analogies with the Tabernacle. I would reluctantly agree a merge. JFW | T@lk 19:43, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Quoting from the Encyclopaedia Judaica ([1]): MICROCOSM (from Gr. mikros kosmos; "small world"), term in the Western philosophical tradition referring to man as an epitome of the universe (the macrocos) in his parts and structure. The Arabic (ʿālam ṣaghīr), Hebrew (olam katan), and Latin (mundis minor) terms are literal equivalents of the Greek. Clearly not just a parallel, but the same concept in a different language. Specifically Jewish applications of the concept can be merged into the main article or stay in their own (renamed) article, but the issue is that without proper sourcing, neither merging nor keeping is a viable option. Perhaps a blank-and-redirect? Apaugasma (talk|contribs) 21:24, 13 April 2021 (UTC) This is irrelevant now, see below. Apaugasma (talk|contribs) 16:20, 18 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: I've gone ahead and written a draft rewrite of the article, now fully based in secondary and tertiary sources. It also contains some sourced information about the analogies with the Tabernacle, as well as other details about various different applications of the analogy. If this rewrite is acceptable, I would fully support keeping, on the condition that the article be renamed to Microcosm-macrocosm analogy in Jewish philosophy or something similar. Jfdwolff, Yaakov Wa., Johnpacklambert, what do you think? Apaugasma (talk|contribs) 02:43, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support new article. JFW | T@lk 09:26, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Rename to Microcosm-macrocosm analogy in Jewish philosophy. Articles are supposed to tell readers what they are. We should not use obscure non-English words that are not in wide use when there is a good English way to describe the contents. I am also beginning to think we need to translate Universidad de whatever to University of whatever in more article titles. I am a little more hesitant on translating colegio to college, since I even the British usage of the word college does not match the Spanish usage of colegio, although it is less different than the USA usage where college almost always refers to tertiary education and phrases like "college sports", "going to college" and "college algebra" amount many others refer to tertiary education in general. The top college sports teams are almost all at places called universities, the truly top ones almost all at places with grad schools, many of which has law, business and medical programs, and although the vast majority of college sports players are undergrad students, there are grad students who play college sports, since A-some people complete undergrad in under 4 years and B-NCAA rules allow 5 years of eligibility. OK, I have truly gone off on a tangent, but my main point is that as an English language encyclopedia we should use English in article names except where the non-English words have a widely known and accepted meaning (if Olam katan was a term used in all forms of philosophy for something specific for example). Actualy titles are a bit debatable, but we have National Autonomous University of Mexico and lots of other examples. Category:Category:Public universities and colleges in Mexico is split about half and half between articles that use English-language and those that use Spanish-lanague titles.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:17, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep as rewritten today and rename to Microcosm-macrocosm analogy in Jewish philosophy. Apaugasma (talk|contribs) 14:54, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep and rename as suggested. This is a legitimate topic. gidonb (talk) 10:17, 19 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.