The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. MBisanz talk 06:20, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Qantas Flight 72[edit]

Qantas Flight 72 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

It seems that whenever Qantas has an incident it must have a Wikipedia article. At this stage, according to the media reports, the aircraft descended because of turbulence and made an emergency landing. There doesn't seem to be any severe damage to the aircraft let alone a hull loss. There was no fatalities. It is possible that in the future more information will come out that does make this incident notable or more information about the actual incident that makes it notable, but at this point does not meet Wikipedia and WikiProject Airport's notability criteria. We could list every incident that Qantas has had but we don't. There have been many incidents, including Qantas incidents that are more severe than this and they don't have and shouldn't have an article in an encyclopaedia. Mvjs (talk) 09:42, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In what way is it pretty important? Bidgee (talk) 11:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

KEEP--This was not an inconsequential emergency landing with no injuries. People had broken bones and had to be rushed to the hospital. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.234.37.172 (talk) 21:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

more people drive everyday, and almost everyone is in a structure every day. not many people fly as frequently as they drive or stay in a structure. motor vehicle operators are also relatively unskilled, requiring only an easy licensing test usually just once in life, at least in north america. airplane operators operate much more advanced equipment and require much more training than an average car driver. there are also many more controls on a plane's movements than for a car, so it is much more restricted. therefore, when something does happen, it is more significant. if we've kept Qantas Flight 30, then we must keep Flight 72. Also, once we learn more, the article will be helpful to those who are trying to learn about turbulence and rapid in-flight descents on wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.234.37.172 (talk) 22:17, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, this accident also satisfies WP:AVIMOS#DENTNOTE, even though that's just a project page style guide and not a formal guideline or policy. -- Rob.au (talk) 16:21, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just to correct you there - 14 people were injured so seriously that they were taken by air ambulance to Perth. Up to 30 further people also attended hospital (it's not currently clear if this was local to Learmonth or not), with up to another 30 further people having injuries not serious enough to need a trip to hospital. These are the numbers given by the ATSB in their media release. So this only strengthens the point - this event is notable regardless of cause. -- Rob.au (talk) 14:45, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Most deletes are citing WP:NOTNEWS and it clearly fails criteria number 2 on that page. GtstrickyTalk or C 14:29, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Quite a few similarities to Air Canada Flight 190. WWGB (talk) 13:22, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Clear air turbulence cannot be detected and isn't avoidable and control systems failures can happen if the turbulence is severe (In the area of the incident was a Heat low (which is a low pressure system with high temperatures on the ground) and a strong jet stream (BTW I'm not saying it's the cause but it's been discussed by some media outlets). This article can be recreated after the official investigation if it's found to be the aircraft and not the "weather". Bidgee (talk) 16:21, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If we are saying that, whatever happened (people were injured!), if it was the weather, then it is NOT NOTABLE, then three points would be (1) We don't know the cause, but the incident was notable, we can only *speculate* as the cause anyway (2) If the plane broke up and everyone died due to [Clear Air Turbulence], should we still delete the article? Because it wasn't Qantas' 'fault'? If so we should delete BA001 / Jakarta Incident too - noone was even injured in that little incident. (3) This article is not about Qantas' 'fault' or 'non-fault', it is not meant to be a forum for aviation enthusiasts vs Qantas haters vs Qantas apologists!. This is a notable incident, and would be if it was British Airways, or any other airline! Buckethed (talk) 12:51, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
On reading Bidgee's statement, I was astonished to learn that in fact decades after doi:10.1038/227260a0 CAT detection was possible by doppler radar lidar, or FLIR, it may in fact still not have been implemented as standard in-flight equipment and is still under discussion and development. In any case, CAT forecasts are routinely made and promulgated. LeadSongDog (talk) 22:44, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In-flight radar as you say is still in development. (RE: promulgated) Australia doesn't have a doppler network like the US so CAT forecating is hard to do. The above you have used are based on the US not Australia. Also there is no doppler radars in NW WA[2] which is where the incident happened. Bidgee (talk) 23:43, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Back to QF72:

An approach that might work here is to create a list of these less noteworthy aviation incidents like this. Socrates2008 (Talk) 06:33, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A bus crash with injuries is many orders of magnitude more common (and also many orders of magnitude more likely to occur on a per distance travelled basis) than an aircraft incident involving injuries. By definition bus crashes are therefore many orders of magnitude less notable than aircraft incidents, everything else being the same. I understand (but obviously disagree with) the point you are making, but the example you have given here really doesn't support your argument. Having said all this - I think a list for less notable incidents is a good idea, but I would still maintain the view that Qantas Flight 72 already satisfies notability criteria for its own article (including with respect to WP:NOT#NEWS). I also suspect you would still see squabbles over notability for inclusion in such a list - just as occured regarding this accident's inclusion on the Airbus A330 article (which I'm still struggling to understand given an injury event on this aircraft type is so rare). -- Rob.au (talk) 10:25, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Good thing WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a policy or else by me stating this I would break the rules. Here's the thing if we kept this article then we would have to recreate all the other similar ones, and more. I have been crying keep on past afds like this one but the rules are rules and they must be followed. If this article does indeed stay then expect me to re-create others similar to this as WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a policy. I suggest maybe we move on with deletion and in a few weeks or two see if this article meets WP:N in which case an admin can easily bring it back. -Marcusmax (talk) 23:38, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Assume good faith comment withdrawn after edit. WWGB (talk) 10:34, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Category