The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was DELETE. The consensus here is a clear delete, but I am not entirely convinced this is a non-notable subject. This decision is therefore without prejudice to future recreation with clearer referencing and I am willing to userfy the article for anyone who wishes to work on it. It would make it a lot easier to assess whether or not all those links to foreign language sources are reliable or not if the source publication was properly formatted and a translation of a key sentence or two provided for the facts being verified. I would also suggest including only WP:RS sources to avoid criticism of due to unreliable sources. Spinning Spark 12:41, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sando Kaisen

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(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

No indications of notability. Although Kaisen appears to be a prolific writer, indications of his writings or his life having been the topic of any independent coverage cannot be found. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 15:25, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if he is what the article claims he is (a specific teacher of soto zen buddhism in Europe, ie. in more than one country in Europe), I think it is clear indication of remarkability concerning the "actual buddhism in the west" topic. But with the wiki based notability could be a problem, he is probably below the horizont. He is one of the hundreds of second generation europian teachers who had non-european masters (Deshimaru for his case). Whether he will be remembered by history is due to the "liquid modernity" question we cannot solve right now. :) If the potential relevant independent sources for notability are not in english, but in czech or polish for example (Kaisen lives in France, but he does mission to the several countries of eastern europe), it is relevant for "english wiki page" ? --Tomaham (talk) 21:59, 22 February 2013 (UTC) — Tomaham (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of France-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:25, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Buddhism-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:25, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:25, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Sources do not need to be in English, but the sources must be independent of the subject. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 01:14, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Well, in that case, there are many of independent sources documenting the claim that "kaisen is zen buddhistic master/teacher doing mission in the eastern europe". There are dozens of newspaper interviews (polish, czech) in the past twenty years of his active career and at least one book concerning the present (2010) buddhistic groups in czech republic, which make it evident fairly well. Are they relevant enough for wiki notability? In what form they should (could) be part of the wiki article? --Tomaham (talk) 15:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And these references?
France:
http://www.buddhachannel.tv/portail/spip.php?article2395 http://www.buddhachannel.tv/portail/spip.php?article20371 http://buddhachannel.tv/portail/spip.php?article20591 http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=7,8474,0,0,1,0 http://www.sudouest.fr/2010/11/16/le-bouddhisme-zen-au-pic-lumineux-240329-1731.php http://sweepingzen.com/794/ http://enews.buddhistdoor.com/en/news/d/1777 http://www.omyogapages.com/yoganews/news_item.php?newsitem=836

Poland:
http://www.buddyzm.edu.pl/cybersangha/page.php?id=309 http://www.dharma.pl/component/content/article/17-k/26-mistrz-kaisen---trylogia-mistrzow-zen http://cojestgrane.pl/miasto/krakow/wydarzenie/afy/tytul/pyl-swiata http://warszawa.dlastudenta.pl/lokale/?act=show_impreza&idi=10698 http://krakow.studentnews.pl/s/8/53030-Krakow-imprezy-koncerty-informacje/273977-Mistrz-Kaisen-w-Krakowie.htm?c1=11535&c2=11813

Czech republic:
From Czech TV: http://www.ceskatelevize.cz/porady/1185258379-cesty-viry/206562215500009-rosi-kaisen/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5uwMnpDs0M&feature=share&list=UUrr9nrp59T2PwBjGQ9Xthzg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nbp8HP0XQas&feature=share&list=UUrr9nrp59T2PwBjGQ9Xthzg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1iI_hFXlJM&feature=share&list=UUrr9nrp59T2PwBjGQ9Xthzg

ISBN 978-80-7436-006-0 (one book concerning the present (2010) buddhistic groups in czech republic, which make it evident fairly well) http://www.dharmagaia.cz/kniha/800-jan-honzik-jednota-v-rozmanitosti-buddhismus-v-ceske-republice PDF: http://www.dharmagaia.cz/knihy/jednota-v-rozmanitos/Jednota-v-rozmanitosti-minibook.pdf

http://neviditelnypes.lidovky.cz/spolecnost-mistr-kaisen-08n-/p_spolecnost.asp?c=A060929_115728_p_spolecnost_wag http://www.metropolislive.cz/detail/6015/0/ http://www.htf.cuni.cz/HTF-80-version1-13Buddhismus.pdf http://www.htf.cuni.cz/HTF-154-version1-NZCR18Buddhismus2012.pdf http://is.muni.cz/th/74822/ff_b/BAKA.txt www.sacra.cz/Scany/2010_1.pdf http://www.christnet.cz/magazin/zprava.asp?zprava=11821 http://dspace.k.utb.cz/bitstream/handle/10563/7844/adam%C3%ADk_2009_dp.pdf?sequence=1 http://www.dingir.cz/archiv/Dingir406.pdf http://www.portal.cz/scripts/detail.php?id=3479 http://www.ivysehrad.cz/data/products/down_1880.pdf http://www.havelka.info/p_zen.html http://www.fdb.cz/film/hra-mysli/67344 http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zazen http://www.carreau.cz/dokumenty/Zen%20buddhismus.docx http://www.kinoartbrno.cz/film/prach-sveta

http://www.sotozen.cz/uploads/clanek2009.pdf http://www.sotozen.cz/uploads/mp3/rozhovor.mp3 http://www.sotozen.cz/uploads/ostrava1.gif http://www.sotozen.cz/uploads/ostrava2.gif http://www.sotozen.cz/uploads/ostrava3.gif http://www.sotozen.cz/uploads/zenovy_mistr_v_praze.htm http://www.sotozen.cz/uploads/lidovky.gif http://www.sotozen.cz/texty/rozhovory-a-clanky/seznam-clanku/

Slovakia:
http://www.topky.sk/cl/5/127158/ http://www.ludmila.sk/zazen.php http://www.obroda.sk/clanok/26027/eSiak-Majstra-Kaisena/ http://aktualne.atlas.sk/kaisen-ak-sa-chcete-stat-osvietenym-budhom-tak-sa-nim-aj-stanete/dnes/zaujimavosti/ http://www.sme.sk/c/2144129/kultura.html http://gregi.net/clanky/majster-kaisen-v-bratislave/

http://zazen.sk/index.php?id=361 http://zazen.sk/fileadmin/chefs/images/ucenie/Kaisen-Vitalita_1-2007.pdf

Russia:
(мастер сандо кайсен) http://www.sunhome.ru/interview/exclusive_interview/kaisen http://www.sunhome.ru/religion/11295 http://ariom.ru/wiki/Kajjsen http://www.chaskor.ru/article/dzen_-_praktika_antirazvitiya_20398 http://zen-russia.livejournal.com/18477.html http://www.tamqui.com/buddhaworld/%D0%9F%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%9C%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%B4%D0%B7%D0%B5%D0%BD_%D0%A1%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%BE_%D0%9A%D0%B0%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%B4%D0%B7%D0%B5%D0%BD-%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B3%D1%85%D0%B5 http://buddhismofrussia.ru/news/113/ http://lurkmore.to/%D0%94%D0%B7%D0%B5%D0%BD http://www.nofollow.ru/detail131715.htm

Ukrain: http://www.artukraine.com.ua/articles/458.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zendojo (talk • contribs) 14:06, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/6080092/French-game-of-boules-hailed-by-Buddhist-master.html http://www.lesboules.hk/petanque/fun-facts/petanque-meditation-tool http://www.franceculture.fr/oeuvre-l%E2%80%99art-de-la-petanque-enseignements-d%E2%80%99un-maitre-zen-de-kaisen.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.208.1.197 (talk) 18:15, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LlamaAl (talk) 00:02, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep-notable topic, article enough sourced. Language could be improved.-Knight of Infinity (talk) 00:35, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. References currently in the article are poor quality (1 of them is to French Wikipedia, the two others don't look very reliable). The link spam below doesn't look convincing; unless the article starts sprouting reliable refs, this will keep looking like a vanity page/ad. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:22, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mark Arsten (talk) 14:04, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete because of questionable notability in the light of WP:GNG, and the concern that the article is used for promotion and that nobody else is interested enough to look after it. The references in the article appear to be either superficial, humorous coverage about a comment he made regarding the game of boules, or catalogue- and list-type entries, but at any rate not the substantial third-party coverage that we'd need as the basis of an article. (There may be better references, but there are too many - and too many crappy ones - listed here that I'm not inclined to look at all of them.) Sandstein 10:19, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, nothing in the article or the linkdump above indicates to me that this person meets the WP:BIO notability criteria. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 10:21, 18 March 2013 (UTC).[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.