The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was keep; anyone else can deal with the rename if necessary. Johnleemk | Talk 12:10, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOR. Scifi/Western crossovers are exceedingly rare and it isn't really a western per se. This page is original research about science fiction films with "western/cowboy" influences, such as apparently Star Trek, or Steampunk stories that happen to play in the wild west (such as Wild Wild West). Radiant_>|< 00:31, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I vote to Keep the Science fiction Western page because I'm not an idiot. --Peace Inside 00:48, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

After reading through the thoughts below, I am changing my vote. I added it to the bottom. *Peace Inside 21:07, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. This is a common and widely recognized sub-genre of science fiction. As this page (part of Kansas University's Center for the Study of Science Fiction) points out, science fiction can be subdivided into many sub-genres, including the science fiction Western. No less an authority than J. B. Priestley defined the "Western" as one of the three most common science fiction types [1]. Some examples, like Firefly, wear the Western influences on their sleeves, while others show the influence only in concept development (viz. Roddenberry's description of Star Trek as "Wagon Train to the stars"). Whether steampunk set in the American West falls into the same category is perhaps debatable, but the existence of the science fiction Western genre is not. Finally, if this were original research, why would it be widespread enough for the Turkey City Writer's Workshop to condemn it as a cliché? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 01:08, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Rename and rewrite to Influence of Western on science fiction or something similar. I can see what the author is getting at but it needs a lot of work — references for one. Daniel Case 02:12, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Rename and rewrite I agree with Daniel Case -- That Guy, From That Show! 03:51, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Rename and rewrite There are enough examples in the article to keep it, but it needs a better name. Captain Jackson 04:11, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Rename and rewrite -- I too agree with Daniel Case there is clearly a relationship. Star Trek was originally billed to the media execs as just this (the fact that it trned out to be no such thing is also relavent). In anyevent I like the suggested title of Influence of Western on science fiction Space Western. Dalf | Talk 06:52, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Changed my support in the case of renaming, Though I think both article titles suggested could have valid articles written there as they are sufficently diffrent I think to cover diffrent subject matter. There is no question in my mind that Space western is a real genera and that there has been some influence by westerns on sci-fi. Dalf | Talk 21:41, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Rename as per Daniel Case. I agree with Radiant though as in it's present form, it delete worthy.--MONGO 08:48, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Rename as per Daniel Case. --Terence Ong 09:47, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep and don't rename. Who's to say whether certain works are Western-influenced science fiction or science fiction-influenced Westerns. The current title seems to describe exactly what is described in the article. Yes, it needs work, but it is an important topic in popular literature. Logophile 09:50, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per Logophile. the wub "?!" ^{RFR - a good idea?} 13:52, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Rename per Daniel Case. It can probably use a re-write as wellShsilver 15:43, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• The most commonly used name for this genre is probably Space western, and while that'd be a misnomer for some types of Sci-Fi, I think it'd be the most sensible target for a Rename. It's generally policy to pick the most common usage for article titles over the most technically correct. I pretty definitely oppose Daniel Case's suggestion, since it's both an uncommon usage AND an inaccurate one. -Colin Kimbrell 16:22, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep and expand. If renamed, I think the suggestion of Space Western is the best given so far. -- MisterHand 16:42, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Rename Space Western. I think I've heard this term used before to describe westerns-style and western-themed stories set in space. Evil Eye 16:54, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep and expand (cites would be a good thing to start with, establishing notability and refuting WP:NOR). I'm not sure a rename is needed per se. If the Keep fails, then maybe the material should be reviewed for inclusion in the main Science Fiction article? ++Lar: t/c 17:57, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep As per Logophile --20:07, 15 January 2006 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Chazz88 (talk • contribs) 16:07, January 15, 2006
• Keep - This isn't rare at all. See, umm, Firefly, Cowboy Bebop, Outlaw Star, et al. It's not as big of a genre as Hard Sci-fi but it's definitely notable. Cyde Weys _vote^talk 23:54, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, rename, and rewrite. Nix the original research, and rename it to be more specific. "Western-influenced science fiction" is awkward, but makes more sense. Agreed that it's notable enough.-Will 00:33, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per Logophile. Some parts may be OR, but there's a substantial amount worth keeping and expanding on.-gadfium 02:19, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep and call it Space Western. Crypticfirefly 03:56, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: or something like Western (cultural influence) since it is not only SF which has been infected by the standard Western plotlines. I wonder if any SF films have soundtracks by Morricone? Aha! [2] - Just zis  Guy, you know? ^[T]/_[C] AfD? 12:17, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep and rename if properly referenced and with some other work, "space westerns" are one of the strands of SF for sure, but Radiant is right that at nomination this article was apparently OR. Peace Inside could do with reading WP:AGF and WP:NPA. - Just zis  Guy, you know? ^[T]/_[C] AfD? 12:14, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment:—Sorry about the confusion on that. I was only talking about myself and didn't mean to imply anything about Radiant. I'm not sure what you mean by suggesting that I read WP:AGF. I always assume good faith, but that has nothing to do with competence. OR is a reason to improve an article, not to delete a term that exists. *Peace Inside 16:30, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Burschik 12:26, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - well known sub-genre. Essexmutant 15:12, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep 0f course! no objection to renaming, so long as the title clearly indicates SF and Western in close proximity. older ≠ wiser 21:25, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• keep please this is a important genre to write about Yuckfoo 01:11, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Rename and rewrite The way it's written it makes it sounds like it's a genre, rather than an occasionally occurring a mentioned theme(which it seems to be in actuality). Smeggysmeg 03:21, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I see no evidence that the science fiction Western is any less of a genre (or sub-genre) than Science fiction sitcom, Comic science fiction or revisionist Western, to pick a few examples at random. I also would very much like to have further discussion with those who feel the article should be renamed, either at Talk:science fiction Western or at Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Science fiction Western#Reasons for renaming?. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:46, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep --nihon 03:58, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Rename: "Space Western" is a term that has been broadly used for over sixty years. "Space" is an adjective that describes the setting. "Western" is a noun that describes the type of story. The setting adjective always precedes the type-of-story noun. In the case where a Science Fiction story is told in a Western setting (i.e. "Wild Wild West"), the adjective would be "Western," and the noun would be "Science Fiction." The only logical name for this genre is "Western Science Fiction." --Blindingly Glowing 17:05, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Rename to Western Science Fiction per Blindingly Glowing's comments above and create a new article on the Space Western genre. *Peace Inside 21:07, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: The problem with "Western science fiction" is that it is ambiguous whether it refers to science fiction with elements of the Western genre, or science fiction with considered with regard to Western civilization (as opposed, presumably, to science fiction with an Eastern focus, e.g the Chung Kuo novel series). Compare discussion at the CfD for the related category. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:26, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep and rename to "Space Western". Preaky 21:35, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep (neutral about name change). I found this article through a Google search about Serentity/Firefly and learned a lot about the genre from it. It does seem to be a valid sub-species of SciFi and the article does a good job explaining it. Slapshot24 08:08, 18 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep (no opinion about name change). I don't think it's original research -- it is seemingly one of the more common sub-genres of science fiction. On whether it should be renamed or not -- I don't personally care, since its synonyms will eventually redirect to this article anyway. — T-Boy: (complain bitterly) (laugh contemptuously) 03:03, 19 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.