The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Draftify. (non-admin closure) ~ Winged BladesGodric 04:31, 8 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Spencer Rabin[edit]

Spencer Rabin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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WP:BLP of a musician with no strong claim of notability per WP:NMUSIC and no quality reliable source coverage to support it. The only discernible notability claim present here is that he exists, as the article states nothing about him that would actually pass any NMUSIC criterion at all -- and the sourcing is parked almost entirely on primary sources and Twitter tweets and blogs, with the article's only acceptable source being a mere blurb about him posting a Jimi Hendrix cover to Soundcloud. No prejudice against recreation in the future if and when he has a stronger notability claim and better sourcing for it than this, but nothing here entitles him to already have an article today. Bearcat (talk) 20:32, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]


"No Better Than This" is a major credit on Jeong Sewoon's new album. He is an A list Korean artist as well as LUNA, another person he has a credit for. These are in fact major publications that justify a page for him. His credit on LUNA reached the number one spot on the Bilboard charts and his big writer/arranger credit on Jeong Sewoon's album is most likely going to chart in the coming days. Wouldn't be shocked if it was a top ten. I keep a close eye on the music charts.

[1]

[2] This article shows the legitimacy of the Sewoon album. It is a major publication, it has just been recently released and I am sure it will chart in the coming days. Propellerhead4 (talk) 22:01, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/k-town/7400369/fx-luna-free-somebody-solo-debut-charts-world-albums
  2. ^ https://www.soompi.com/2018/01/08/jeong-sewoon-announces-comeback-plans/
Rabin is not mentioned in either of those articles, however. —C.Fred (talk) 22:34, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that Jeong Sewoon's album was successful doesn't have any bearing on Spencer Rabin's notability. Notability is not inherited, so Spencer Rabin doesn't get an automatic notability freebie just for working with Jeong Sewoon, unless and until Spencer Rabin is the subject of reliable source coverage about Spencer Rabin. Which you haven't shown any of. Bearcat (talk) 22:39, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Rabin is in fact mentioned in the soompi article. Note the photo under January 17th where he is credited for "No Better Than This"

Additionally, I did find a couple articles that are exclusively about him.

https://www.guitarworld.com/artists/16-year-old-guitarist-spencer-rabin-covers-jimi-hendrixs-voodoo-child-slight-return

http://brotherhoodoftheguitar.com/?team=spencer-rabin


I also read many articles about his album "Apollo II" however, Apollo II never charted, unlike some of the K-Pop projects Rabin has been involved in.


Propellerhead4 (talk) 17:50, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]


Propellerhead4 (talk) 22:42, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Mentioned in a photo" is irrelevant. He must be the subject of coverage that is substantively about him, not just have his existence namechecked in coverage of other people, and Soompi is not a reliable source in the first place. Bearcat (talk) 23:06, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note WP:COMPOSER


NOTE "Recordings"

"Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, "

Luna's Galaxy Sewoon's "No Better Than This" , and his other credits were all released by major Korean Labels: SM Entertianment, and Starship Entertainment.

That criterion means "is the subject of media coverage", not "has credits on other people's albums". Albums are not media coverage about a person, so they are not "publications" for the purposes of getting a person over a Wikipedia notability criterion. Bearcat (talk) 23:04, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note "The single or album has appeared on any country's national music chart."

Galaxy hit #1 in the K-Pop Charts in Billboard, Sewoons Album will probably chart as well, i will post in here in the coming days to update you. The Lydia Lee songs also charted on Spotify. Rabin is more than qualified.

That criterion refers to the performer of a song, not its writer, and even then the performer still has to be the subject of media coverage. It is entirely possible for a person to have a single hit a pop chart but not receive media coverage for that, and that person still does not get a Wikipedia article until the media coverage kicks in. It's the media coverage that gets them in or out, not the song itself. And charting on Spotify counts for exactly nothing on Wikipedia, either, as we only accept IFPI-certified national charts on the order of Billboard. Bearcat (talk) 23:04, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Propellerhead4 (talk) 22:57, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Has credit for writing or co-writing either lyrics or music for a notable composition." Is mentioned in the WP:BLP guidelines. Rabin has many of these.

Has received media coverage about their writing or cowriting of a notable composition. It's not the claim to passing an NMUSIC criterion that passes NMUSIC — the determining factor is the quality and depth of reliable source coverage in media that can or cannot be shown to verify the claim. Bearcat (talk) 23:04, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

While there may be a few sources that would be "unreliable" I would argue that some of these sources are, in fact, reliable. In the days following the Sewoon release, there will undoubtedly be more sources regarding Rabin's Credits. I will be sure to update you and add them to the article. In the meantime, I will be sure to additionally remove some of the more obsolete sources and replace them with the reliable ones.

Propellerhead4 (talk) 01:42, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Babymissfortune 02:31, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. Babymissfortune 02:34, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Illinois-related deletion discussions. Babymissfortune 02:34, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. North America1000 13:58, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]


The Sewoon Album has been released. When I checked the itunes charts yesterday, it was at #6. I'm sure the numbers for Gaon and Billboard will come in the following days and I will update the page accordingly to the chart numbers. I have also added a source directly from the record label to the article, and will continue to add more as they come out. This credit meets the criteria for composers in WP:COMPOSER. In addition to these charting credits, he also seems to have a decent following for a songwriter. I don't often see songwriters who have a "verified" badge on their facebook page.

I believe this page should remain in the mainspace. I will be more than happy to keep a close eye on the young mans career and re-evaluate his notability if he was to not have more notable compositions in the coming years.


The topic of musicians, and especially songwriters, who work behind the scene, can be subjective when talking about notability. I believe that Rabin's credits are indeed notable enough to be on the mainspace.


Propellerhead4 (talk) 17:41, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Notability is demonstrated by reliable source coverage about a person in media. Nothing that can be claimed about any person ever hands them an automatic notability freebie in the absence of any proper media coverage, because media coverage is the notability test. We do not keep an article just because somebody makes unverifiable claims that the subject has a "decent" following, and we do not keep an article just because their social media profile has a "verified" badge on it. (That badge is not a mark of notability, as such, but is a thing that's granted to anybody who undertakes the process required to get it.) And charting on iTunes is not an NMUSIC pass, either — again, we require IFPI-certified charts on the order of Billboard, not single-vendor charts from online music stores. And even if the song does eventually the Billboard charts, that still won't exempt Rabin from having to be substantively the subject of media coverage in reliable sources before he qualifies for a Wikipedia article — no number of credits, even on charting songs, exempts a musician from having to have media coverage about him. Bearcat (talk) 19:08, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We require multiple reliable sources, not just one — and the Guitar World piece is a mere blurb. And AllMusic assists in supporting notability if AllMusic writes some editorial content about him, such as a biographical profile and/or actual critical reviews of his releases — however, since AllMusic tries to the best of its ability to maintain at least a basic "list of credits" page for every musician who exists as any participating credit on any album, having that kind of page does not assist in supporting a musician's notability if there's no editorial content added to it. You're simply not getting what's required, and please also note that while you're allowed to comment more than once in an AFD discussion you're not allowed to vote more than once. Bearcat (talk) 16:57, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 13:01, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]


This is a classic case of songwriters not getting the credit they deserve. Happens all the time. Spencer Rabin is not an artist. He is a songwriters/producer who has notable compositions. This means his notability should be jugged by his credits first and media coverage, which he still has, second. Even the biggest songwriters don't have huge mainstream media coverage, and Spencer Rabin still has coverage in notable sites like guitar world. After being resisted, No Better Than this, (one of his compositions) was 3# on the Gaon charts. (South Korean Charts) If it wasn't notable enough a week ago, it is now, and it most certainly puts him in the criteria for WP:COMPOSER. I have already updated the article with the proper sourcing for that.

http://gaonchart.co.kr/main/section/chart/album.gaon #3 on the album charts.


Propellerhead4 (talk) 20:18, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Notability is always dependent on having reliable source coverage in media — even a President of the United States would be non-notable if he somehow managed to hold the role without getting media coverage for it. The reason for this is partly to protect our article subjects from harm — because we're an encyclopedia that anybody can edit, we cannot guarantee that everybody is editing responsibly, and our articles regularly have false or libellous or contentious information added to them. As well, if we exempted people from having to have reliable source coverage just because the article made impressive-sounding claims, then publicity-seeking wannabes could get into Wikipedia by lying about what they'd actually accomplished. So no, notability cannot be judged "the list of credits itself is paramount and reliable source coverage is only secondary" — the reliable source coverage has to be paramount, because being able to properly verify an article's content in reliable sources is the only tool we have to keep our articles accurate. The bottom line is, we're not a free publicity venue on which people are automatically entitled to have articles, but an encyclopedia which has to be referenced properly — so a person who cannot meet our reliable sourcing rules on their face does not get a special exemption from them just because the article says things that sound impressive. Bearcat (talk) 21:56, 6 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]


There are myriad reliable sources in this article. There is the Guitar World article, There is the Sompi article, there are official discographies and references galore. There are 14 sources in that article, that is much more than the typical songwriter/producer on wikipedia. There is reliable media coverage about Spencer Rabin. This is especially impressive given the fact that he is a songwriter and producer. These people never get as much coverage in the media because they work behind the scenes. The fact of the matter is, there is more than enough coverage in the media to qualify him for an article, and his compositions meet the criteria for WP:COMPOSER. He had a #3 on Gaon this week. This qualifies the recording as notable "the single or album has appeared on any country's national music chart." As well as another requirement for musicians: "Has been placed in rotation nationally by a major radio or music television network." Additionally in notability for musicians, Rabin meets "Has had a single or album on any country's national music chart." He has met this multiple times. Propellerhead4 (talk) 22:38, 6 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No, there are not myriad reliable sources in this article — what you're failing to understand is the difference between a reliable source and an unreliable one. A reliable source is not just any random web page that happens to contain the statement you want to support — a reliable source is media coverage about him, and nothing else. For example, a person does not get a Wikipedia article by self-publishing a website on Wix.com, or by having a Twitter or Facebook or YouTube profile, that "supports" the notability claims, a person does not get a Wikipedia article by getting blogged about, and a person does not get a Wikipedia article by having his own label issue press releases — a person gets a Wikipedia article when real, independent and unaffiliated media have taken notice of his achievements, and written their own editorial content about him. Which means that Sompi is not a reliable source, his "official discography" is not a reliable source, a press release from the record label is not a reliable source, and on and so forth: they are not media coverage about him. There is only one reliable source in this article — Guitar World — and that is not enough all by itself. We require multiple reliable sources, not just one, and you have not shown multiple reliable sources.
And again, there is no notability claim that any person can make which exempts them from having to have reliable source coverage just because the claim has been asserted. Charting single? Has to be supported by reliable source coverage before it counts. "Placed in rotation nationally by a major radio or music television network"? Has to be supported by reliable source coverage before it counts. Nothing in NMEDIA can be passed just by stating it, and a person can technically pass any NMUSIC criteria and still not get an article if reliable source coverage is not available to support one. It's not the claim itself that gets them into Wikipedia, it's the depth and volume of reliable source coverage that can be shown to support it.
Please note, as well, that if I have to respond to you one more time in this discussion with a rehash of stuff that has already been explained to you above, I'll be forced to consider editblocking you for being disruptive. The only way you can get this article saved is to find better referencing, namely media coverage, which counts as reliable sourcing — you are not going to get this saved by simply bludgeoning it over and over again with the persistent refusal to understand what's already been said to you multiple times about why the sources present here are not what Wikipedia requires. Bearcat (talk) 01:40, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]


Propellerhead4 (talk) 01:56, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]


There are some reliable sources in the article that you are not recognizing.


Rabin is recognized as a “Fender Artist” by the brotherhood of guitar--an organization that seeks out and recognizes talented young musicians. They did a piece on him.


Additionally, his charting single is backed by the official Gaon charts as well as on official release by the record label starship entertainment that credits him by name.


These are reliable sources.


This source comes directly from the label which Rabin is unaffiliated from as a songwriter and is reliable: 


http://www.starship-ent.com/bbs/board.php?bo_table=newrelease&wr_id=57&page=710


Here is the piece that Brotherhood Of Guitar did:

http://brotherhoodoftheguitar.com/?team=spencer-rabin


And here is the Gaon Chart again: http://gaonchart.co.kr/main/section/chart/album.gaon


These are "real, independent and unaffiliated reliable sources that support and credit the evidence in this article.

Propellerhead4 (talk) 02:04, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

All the Starship press release shows is that he was the arranger on a song. Being one of four arrangers does not, in and of itself, rise to the level required by WP:NMUSIC, nor does his name being mentioned once as an arranger constitute substantial coverage for WP:GNG. —C.Fred (talk) 02:07, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The Brotherhood of Guitar is not independent. Quoting its about page: "I reached back out to Fender, and asked if they would support me in putting together a web site of young Fender unsigned guitar players, giving them a window to show who they were, and what they wanted to do."[emphasis added] Thus, all BoG is doing is hosting text written by or for Rabin. —C.Fred (talk) 02:09, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The Gaon chart does not mention Rabin by name. And again, being an arranger on an album that charted is not the same as being an artist. Rabin is not notable. Based on this level of grasping at straws, I'm ready to change my !vote to strong delete. —C.Fred (talk) 02:10, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]


Okay, I understand.

This wikipedia article needs some work. Rabin is young and I'm sure there will be reliable sources that come out in the future or with future credits. May we move this back over to my draft space, and I'll keep an eye out and continue working on it/improving until it is ready to be on the mainspace?

Propellerhead4 (talk) 02:13, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No objection if the discussion is closed as a delete but the page history is moved to Draft:Spencer Rabin. @Bearcat and Bonadea: Does that sound like a good idea to y'all? —C.Fred (talk) 02:19, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, I have no objections to that. --bonadea contributions talk 06:45, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That would be acceptable as well, though to be honest I think Propeller's user sandbox might be preferable to draft space. There are no limits on how long a page can be kept in userspace, but in draftspace the page can get deleted again if it takes longer than six months to get improved enough to return to mainspace. Bearcat (talk) 16:48, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've asked Northamerica1000for assistance, since that was the last person to make a relist. —C.Fred (talk) 23:24, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, can we please do that? Have it in my user space? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Propellerhead4 (talk • contribs) 17:15, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]


Sorry guys for having such a stick up my ass. I'm new to the editing process, so this was a valuable learning experience for me, thank you guys! Propellerhead4 (talk) 02:21, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]


Would I be able to just move it into my draft space or is there another process?

Propellerhead4 (talk) 00:53, 8 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It needs to be moved for you, because the history of Draft:Spencer Rabin would need to be combined first. You need administrative assistance to do that. —C.Fred (talk) 01:38, 8 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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