The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. I don't expect this to be uncontroversial. However, there are no sources for this game's existance. None. Seqsea and others have clearly demonstrated this. That, along with the majority of keep comments come from new or unregistered users, and that th e arguments for deletion vastly outweigh the arguments for keeping, lead this to be deleted.--Sean Black (talk) 00:27, 23 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Game (game)[edit]

Note: Contrary to the title, this is actually the 3rd nomination

This is actually the third nomination. Links to previous nominations: September 2004 and December 2005. Both nominations included keep votes from established users, new users, and anons, and the closing admins have stood behind their decisions to keep. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 18:58, 18 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Changed my mind. The article is seemingly never going to get sourced, and that means it shouldn't be here. --Fuzzie (talk) 22:06, 22 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: I just spent a couple of hours scouring LexisNexus, ProQuest, InfoWeb, and Google for anything related to the game. Only Google returns results and they are all blogs or forums. From Wikipedia:Reliable sources (which is just a guideline): "Posts to bulletin boards and Usenet, or messages left on blogs, are never acceptable as primary or secondary sources. [...] Personal websites and blogs may never be used as secondary sources." From WP:Verifiability (which is a policy): "If an article topic has no reputable sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on that topic. [...] For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources. [...] And just because information is true, that doesn't mean that it meets our verifiability requirements — information has to be sourced if it is to have a place in Wikipedia." While this article represents a unique case, continuing to allow it without any hope for sources is in direct violation of both guideline and official policy. I still stand by what I wrote above—the game does exist and is played—but that is not enough to warrant inclusion. Until it becomes popular enough to have more than a handful of hits on Google, it should remain the province of college dorms, high school homerooms, and blogs. —Seqsea (talk) 00:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

--Liface 06:39, 19 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment One of these "major websites" is virtually empty (e.g., its list of "known players" consists in its entirety of "Dan"), and the other belongs to Kernow (talk · contribs), who is using it to lobby for votes in this AfD. --phh 20:52, 19 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You have to keep this game by this point. No question The Game is inane, however it is now an established social grace to admit loss. When one says "I lost" half the room -no matter what the social setting- understands and confesses losing as well. To delete this game would be par with deleting hopscotch (an equally pointless but renowned game). 70.226.183.238 03:20, 19 March 2006 (UTC)Nathaniel[reply]

Why should such votes be discounted? I have put up this link to make visitors to my site aware of the AfD. A significant number of those voting Delete include The Game's lack of notability as a reason. Every vote for Keep, no matter where from, or what reasons they give, automatically dispute such claims of non-notability. There are almost 1000 players in the Cambridge Facebook group alone. Over 400 people have filled in their details on The Game Tree.
If voters that have come here from my site can provide good reasons as to why The Game article should be kept, then such views are just as valuable as anyone elses. As it says in the Attention box above, it is the reasons given, not the number of votes that counts. Kernow 19:32, 19 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Many people consider calling "help" with an AfD an act of bad faith. This is why I placed the ((afdanons)) notice at the top of this AfD. You have to admit, "PLEASE HELP! The Game is up for deletion on Wikipedia! Click here and vote KEEP with your reasons." Certainly sounds like an attempt to vote-stack. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 19:39, 19 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, it is an attempt to get more reasons for keeping this article. Kernow 20:04, 19 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Um, I voted to keep and it seems like votestacking to me. JoshuaZ 20:07, 19 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
How you voted is irrelevant. As it clearly says in the Attention box above "ballot stuffing is pointless. There is no ballot to stuff". I am merely trying to get as many opinions about The Game as possible, so that the best decision regarding this article can be made. Kernow 20:52, 19 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You're trying to court the opinions of people to vote Keep, not to get lots of wonderful new reasons that nobody has thought of for why this article should be kept. Kinitawowi 21:50, 19 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As some of you do not trust my motives for adding the link I will remove it immediately. Kernow 22:27, 19 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
My point is that the tag has been around for a very short amount of time. Without this, readers are unaware that the article requires a source, and this will significantly increase the time it takes to find one. Kernow 22:09, 19 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
And my point is that people have already been looking for information for eighteen months, without success. Kinitawowi 23:13, 19 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can tell, the Wikipedia Verifiability page does not discuss this seemingly unique situation whereby the only source refers to the article itself. The Game is refered to in a "reliable, published source" and this appears to be all Wikipedia requires as regards verification. Even if this is not the case, its appearance in two publications would definately weaken the "non-notable" argument given by a significant number of Delete voters. Kernow 23:28, 19 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The ad does not mention the game; it mentions the existence of the WP article, just as User:Brabblebrex said. Here is an image of the ad. It's not the best, but you can see that it's a magazine, and that there is no context whatsoever for the link. As far as I'm concerned, citing this as a reason for keeping the article is the same as citing other articles on WP—it shouldn't and can't be done. We're back to having no reliable published sources. (Also, even if the advertisement did mention the game, I would have trouble calling an advertisement a reliable source.) —Seqsea (talk) 02:39, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I find it highly prophetic that the advert features the article as a redlink. ;-) Kinitawowi 11:51, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The ad does mention The Game. The fact it is within a link to Wikipedia is simply a way of telling people (that don't already play) about the rules. According to WP:V an article "should refer only to facts, assertions, theories, ideas, claims, opinions, and arguments that have already been published by a reputable publisher". I assume MacWorld/MacAddict count as reputable publishers. I can't find any advice in the Wikipedia policies on what to do if the only published source refers to the article. This is a unique case and I feel your interpretation of Wikipedia policies is hasty. Kernow 22:13, 22 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • This user's first edit.[6] --phh 03:54, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, while I find "The Game" irritating and do not play it, I do not doubt it exists. However, I do have doubts that has enough source credibility and accuracy. Overall? Neutral - I'll let the more experienced folk on here guide me in this. -Crocos 07:24, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
And that's why Wikipedia shouldn't create primary sources, which is why I say delete it. If anyone still remembers it in a year (and has written about it somewhere other than their livejournal), maybe it'll count as notable then. Robin Johnson 16:42, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This article has existed for well over a year, I personally have been playing since 2002. I have been contacted by a number of people that have been playing since 1998. Kernow 17:24, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No one's saying it doesn't exist. It does. They're saying no reliable sources documenting it exist. They don't. Robin Johnson 10:38, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I am well aware of the lack of sources. I was refering to your comment "If anyone still remembers it in a year, maybe it'll count as notable then". Many people will still be losing The Game in a year and it is notable now. Kernow 21:44, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. I thought about it long and hard, but decided my original decision was wrong. The game is notable yes, and it definitely exists - but we have no sources, it's therefore clearly against policy, and as others have pointed out Wikipedia is fast becoming a primary source for this, which is a bad idea (we delete other games made up in school to stop Wikipedia being used as a platform for spreading memes, which is exactly what is happening here!). With respect to the large number of users voting keep, (and of course welcome to those new to Wikipedia!), many of you do not seem to understand the reasons for deleting - nobody, or almost nobody, is claiming that The Game does not exist, however it is against the policies of this encyclopedia to document as fact something that we cannot back up. Also, as far as I'm aware the fact it has survived before is not grounds by itself to keep the article. ZoFreX 01:56, 22 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment WP:IAR is a pseudo-guideline; WP:SENSE is not even that. WP:NOR is a fundamental content-guiding policy; it can't be simply over-ruled in the manner you suggest. Kinitawowi 15:10, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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