The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Per WP:SNOW. Rabid inclusionists even agree that this person is not notable by our standards; nothing good can come out of this AfD. Drmies (talk) 18:44, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ujjwal Patni[edit]

Ujjwal Patni (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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No indication in published third-party reliable sources that the individual concerned meets WP:Notability (people) guidelines, either as an author or for any other reasons. Seems to be an efficient self-publicist, hence the abundance of self-authored puffery, but nothing else of any real significance - despite attempts to manufacture notability by synthesis. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:13, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The subject clearly meets the criteria for WP:AUTHOR and WP:Notability (people) guidelines.

Exclusive publication about Patni with reference of Books and other achievements

Latest published Biography - Dr Ujjwal Patni is a dentist turned self-help author of 6 books published in more than 12 languages, a popular motivational speaker

Latest Published Interview - The Times of India weekly speaking tree print edition. A dentist turned motivational speaker and corporate trainer, with more than two lakh trainees across 100 cities, Dr Patni is the celebrated author of six self-help books in 12 languages. Here’s an exclusive chat with Guinness world record achiever Dr Ujjwal Patni:.

Latest published news about review of Patni's book Power Thinking in India Today - http://www.onlineprnews.com/news/238521-1340137375-india-today-recommends-power-thinking-by-top-trainer-author-dr-ujjwal-patni.htmlThe book in light is Power Thinking authored by Top Indian author and corporate trainer Dr Ujjwal Patni. Power Thinking

list of Books - Power Thinking, Winners and losers, Safal vakta safal vyakti, Great Words Win Hearts, The Bitter truth of network marketing and network marketing – join add win.

All the books are with ISBN numbers and widely available in multiple languages. Just for reference, all the top online sellers show Patni's book on their catalogue. Some are presented below.

Books on Flipkart, India's top online store shows Patni's 14 Books in multiple languages [1][2]

Books on Google [3][4] [5]

Books on Amazon [6]

Hundreds of other evidence are present in different language on world wide web. Thanks...Nothing Personal and Nothing permanent. (talk)— Mahaveerji (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 12:08, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment'. And here we go - the same meaningless sources that we've already been bombarded with at Talk:Ujjwal Patni -
'Biography': reader-submitted content [7], written by an anonymous person who states that "As a passion and hobby, he contributes in national level newspapers, magazines and blogs on leadership, motivation and personal effectiveness as a free lancer".
'Interview': Written by the subject himself, and not published in the Times of India. This is 'http://www.speakingtree.in'. Interestingly, I see that the salient fact that this was self-authored has now been removed from the page. It does nothing to establish notability under our guidelines anyway...
'Latest published news': from 'onlineprnews.com' - a press release. "Online PR Media offers affordable multimedia press releases that achieve high search engine visibility -- putting your message in front of the right people at exactly the right time". [8]
'List of books': Wrong link, but so what? We know Patni writes books. None of them have received the recognition required meet the requirements of WP:AUTHOR.
Wikipedia notability requirements have repeatedly been explained to Mahaveerji, but all we've been given in return is unsuitable sources. synthesis, irrelevance, and waffle. We don't need evidence that Patni writes books. We need evidence that his books qualify him for an article under our notability guidelines. No such evidence has been provided, though Mahaveerji asserts the contrary. So a simple question for Mahaveerji: which of the specific numbered criteria in WP:AUTHOR does Patni meet, and where are the third-party published reliable sources to demonstrate this? AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:57, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:02, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:02, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Reply to Comments of AndyTheGrump
With Good Faith, I suggest you to correlate the facts through primary, secondary and third party reliable sources. If none of the contributors are making exaggerated claim about Patni, personal attacks must be stopped on contributors who want to construct this article and nothing derogatory must be said about the subject. I am presenting a point to point reply to the comments posted by you.

'Your first comment - Biography' - Intentionally ? the full introduction of the author is conceded and only few selected words were presented by you. Successstories[9] is a global reputed website that has published credible biographies of achievers across the world. Instead of discussing a single line about Patni's biography, you are more concerned about the author's bio. Pls correlate the contents with other available evidences. Few other lines conceded by you about the worthy contributor are -

Ramesh, a management postgraduate works as a senior regional manager in an educational company. He loves to meet top motivational speakers to know about their lives, words and work and spreads their inspiration and wisdom through his writings. Ramesh also takes sessions throughout the country on motivation, marketing and human relationships. He is inspired by Dr Stephen covey, Dale Carnegie, Sri Sri Ravishankar, Dr. Kiran Bedi and Dr. Ujjwal Patni. Does it make any difference, if the content is accurate?

' Your second comment - Interview' - Instead of questioning the content, Why are you continuously questioning the credibility of India's topmost media house to delete Patni is not clear. The Times of India Speaking Tree (English weekly) is a weekly newspaper that caters to the reader seeking any form of wellbeing of the mind or body.

Furthermore even if it is 'http://www.speakingtree.in', that doesn't decrease the credibility because it is started by The Times of India and provides a platform to interact with gurus, seek answers.

' Your third comment about online pr news' - I would suggest you to correlate the content with numerous evidences available, instead of doubting on everybody's intent. The news is about the review of Ujjwal Patni's book Power Thinking on India Today which is a highly prestigious weekly Hindi magazine of India. There is no extraordinary claim in the news about Patni. If you are really responsible researcher , i would suggest you to get this prestigious Hindi review translated and you would surely take back your deletion nomination.

' Your fourth comment - I sincerely thank you for accepting that Patni writes books. Let the notability issue to be evaluated by unbiased, neutral and ethical Wikipedians.

Thanks Thanks...Nothing Personal and Nothing permanent. (talk)— Mahaveerji (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 15:40, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have no interest in discussing ethics with an idiot. Find somewhere else to promote Patni. He isn't notable by our criteria. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:58, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
All of Mahaveerji's arguments for notability above have been addressed already through extensive discussion on the talk page. The editor continues to provide non-notable, non-RS, WP:SYNTH, and misleading sources as presumptive evidence of notability.
Case in point is the so-called interview that Mahaveerji alleges was published in the Times of India newspaper. It wasn't; it was published on Speaking Tree, which is a social networking site with user-generated content.[10]. Rather than being an interview, the article in question is a self-authored puff piece written by Patni himself. It was indicated as such 2 days ago when I checked the article (Patni was listed as the author), which I pointed out to Mahaveerji on the Talk page.[11] -- but miraculously, Patni is no longer listed as author in the version that's posted on the Speaking Tree website as of today.[12] Nonetheless, it is evident from a cached copy of the page that Patni was in fact listed as the author.[13] So presumably, someone went and doctored the source in the past 2 days. So now we can add gaming the system to the list of problems with the Patni article. Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:00, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
At this point, I think we should ask 'Mahaveerji'/'...Nothing Personal...' the obvious questions. Are you Ujjwal Patni? And if not, do you have any sort of business or personal relationship with him? If the answer to either question is yes, you should read Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. If you aren't, I'd be interested to hear why you are so concerned that Patni should have a Wikipedia article... AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:08, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You have used the word Idiot in your previous comment, unfortunately I am not technically competent to report the conduct at appropriate forum., else things might have been different. Just to answer you, I am not connected to article. I am one among the ordinary millions who love motivational speakers and books and want to be respected for their hard work. The question may come back to you also... why you are so keen to delete this article since last 6 months, why you never allowed anybody to add anything, why you protected a particular version for 2 months and then deleted everything in 3 days without any discussion on talk page in may?


Serious concern

I suspect, it a case of joint working, teaming up and grouping by two contributors to delete the article? Both of them are using the word WE in their comments and referring to each other on this page. Rhode Island Red also gave a joint statement on the talk page including the name of AndyTheGrump. Both commented here within a gap of few seconds or minutes one by one with the use of we. Even the last few reverts in the article were done consecutively by both within a gap of few seconds and minutes. Both discussed about the timings for deletion multiple times on the talk page. If it is teaming up , its a serious matter because i am not experienced and technically competent to handle such teaming, need noble contributors to intervene. I did my maximum with the right intention...Now a break...I am happy that i was bold as per the spirit of Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mahaveerji (talk • contribs)— Mahaveerji (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 17:25, 15 October 2012
Mahaveerji - I am a rabid inclusionist on Wikipedia -- I have saved many many articles from deletion. But I can only do so when I have material to work with. We need profiles in mainstream newspapers, and magazine, and things like that, to show notability.--Milowent • hasspoken 17:32, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Mahaveerji, I can't really glean much from your last barely coherent comment other than that you are avoiding the notability issue in lieu of inventing conspiracy theories about WP editors. I'll suggest to you that that your approach is, at best, non-constructive and very much in conflict with WP P&Ps. I agree that you have done your maximum; there is apparently nothing more you can do. That's the point -- we've reached the end of the road and non-notability seems to be the consensus conclusion. Rhode Island Red (talk) 23:05, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ujjwal Patni On premier Television channels - Search shows patni's multiple solo interview and live talk shows on prestigious International TV channels of Indian origin as an author. Exact links can be searched later but for this AFD page, following are vital and improve notability of Patni as author to a great extent. These supporting videos erase the concerns of synthesis as it is not possible. Few are presented below, many are there on web..
On Zee TV India'a leading channel - Live talk show[14][15],
On Doordarshan an Indian public service broadcaster and most widely available terrestrial television channel in India, Patni is seen in two prestigious national shows as solo guest... in Subah Savere show and The Evening Live talk Show [16][17]
Ujjwal Patni in regional, national and International language -
6 motivational books in non Indian language like Nepali, the language of Nepal, global language English and 8-10 regional language like Punjabi,Gujarati, Bengali, Malayalam, Marathi etc...Strongly indicative of author's notability. Those who are connected to publishing industry know that only notable authors get an opportunity to get published in so many regional, national and international language.
Images -
Though images are not considered as concrete sources still they help us in correlating the facts that make him notable. Constructive editors may spare few seconds to have a look.[18][19]
Regarding content for WP:AUTHOR much is already presented and is sufficient to retain the article or to construct it further. In fact a detailed biography with cross verifiable contents on a global website is reliable[20]. wp articles on other Indian authors & motivational speakers are based on similar biographies and citations.
Anay jain (talk)— Anay jain (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 11:48, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The TV links are not to the websites of the TV station concerned (the first two seem to be the same clip), and do nothing to demonstrate that Patni meets WP notability guidelines anyway. We know Patni writes books. We know he's been photographed. We know that someone put an image of him on Wikipedia commons (yeah, that is really evidence of notability, isn't it... doh!). I would also wish to put on record that since sockpuppetry allegations have been bandied around I would like an explicit assurance from Anay jain that this is the only account that he/she has edited Wikipedia under - and that there is no conflict of interest involved in the promotion of Patni (which, given that Jain seems to have edited nothing else on Wikipedia, seems implausible). There seem to have been multiple accounts adding promotional material to the Patni article, though curiously, their editing histories never overlap - and curiously, they seem to have the habit of editing the Patni article, and almost nothing else... AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:17, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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