The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Sandstein 06:17, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Vestoj[edit]

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Non-notable journal, no independent sources, not indexed in any selective databse. Does not meet WP:GNG or WP:NJournals. Randykitty (talk) 20:11, 25 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of France-related deletion discussions. —Mike moral ♪♫ 21:56, 25 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fashion-related deletion discussions. —Mike moral ♪♫ 21:56, 25 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The term 'journal' appears here to be used in a non-academic manner, and as a synonym for 'magazine', in accordance with the Wikipedia definition of 'journal'. Vestoj is not a peer-reviewed scholarly publication but it also falls outside of the definition of 'fashion magazine'. Though its content is regularly written by academics, it is not intended for scholarly use but rather to bring academic research to a general public. Vestoj places as much emphasis on visual content as it does on articles (academic papers, journalistic articles, literature and poetry); in this sense Vestoj occupies a rare, interdisciplinary and groundbreaking space in fashion publishing. However, if 'journal' is still not deemed a valid definition, perhaps 'periodical' or 'publication' are more suitable options?

The article on Vestoj has several independent sources listed as references and it satisfies the following criteria on notability:

"Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail, so no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be / the main topic of the source material.[1]

I just checked and all links are working, not sure how come you got dead ends RandyKitty? But I thought maybe this will help clarify your concerns, you will notice that these are neither passing mentions or only blog based references:

References:

Det Svenska Modeundret is a book published by Norstedts, the oldest publishing house in Sweden, and p.118-120 deals with Vestoj. This reference is from the University of the Arts London Research Online Library. This is the largest art and fashion university conglomerate in Great Britain. This article is about Vestoj’s first issue on SID, which is the online publication of Pressbyrån, the largest chain of newspaper and magazine stores in Sweden. It is written by Johan Wirfäldt, one of Sweden’s most prominent media journalists. This article is also on SID, written by Fredrik Strage, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fredrik_Strage, one of the most prominent journalists in Sweden dealing with popular culture. This link is the online publication for AnOther Magazine, one of the most respected fashion magazines worldwide with over 606,930 readers (http://www.anothermag.com/content/advertising/Another-Media-Pack-2011.pdf). Other interviewees in the series An Intellectual fashion include Harold Koda, curator at the Met Museum in NYC, Suzy Menkes of the International Herald Tribune, Didier Grumbach, chairman of the Chambre Syndicale de la Haute Couture, Caroline Evans Professor in Fashion History and Theory at Central Saint Martins, the artist Maurizio Cattelan, the writer Douglas Coupeland and the philosopher Bernard-Henri Lévy. http://www.anothermag.com/current/An_Intellectual_Fashion This reference appeared both in print and online, Svenska dagbladet is Sweden’s largest daily newspaper. Vestoj’s editor is quoted in the main article and Vestoj is described as one of the best in the crop of new fashion publications in a sidebar that also mentions Condé Nast’s LOVE. Same as point 5! Donatien Grau who edits the column also regularly works with Palais de Tokyo in Paris, has published a book on contemporary art and philosophy for Sternberg Press, has lectured at Cornell University and writes for the Huffington Post.

Thank you for helping me make this article more rigorous - I hope this information helps make things clearer for you, I realise that it isn’t so easy with all these sources in Swedish! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Henkiespankie (talk • contribs) 08:26, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Reliable" means sources need editorial integrity to allow verifiable evaluation of notability, per the reliable source guideline. Sources may encompass published works in all forms and media, and in any language. Availability of secondary sources covering the subject is a good test for notability.

"Sources",[2] for notability purposes, should be secondary sources, as those provide the most objective evidence of notability. The number and nature of reliable sources needed varies depending on the depth of coverage and quality of the sources. Multiple sources are generally expected.[3] Sources are not required to be available online, and they are not required to be in English. Multiple publications from the same author or organization are usually regarded as a single source for the purposes of establishing notability.

"Independent of the subject" excludes works produced by those affiliated with the subject or its creator. For example, self-publicity, advertising, self-published material by the subject, the subject's website, autobiographies, and press releases are not considered independent.[4]

(On that note, please look at the Wiki page for Cabinet magazine, which appears to have significantly less rigorous referencing than this page on Vestoj: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_%28magazine%29) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.57.218.87 (talk) 19:50, 30 June 2013 (UTC) — 80.57.218.87 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mark Arsten (talk) 18:50, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I'm sorry, but your reading of WP:NJournals and WP:GNG is rather off. Whether you consider Vestoj to be a fashion magazine, an academic journal, or something in between, it fails all our guidelines. There is no significant coverage. The sources given in the article are blogs (not a reliable source), dead links, or in-passing mentions of Vestoj. The article on Cabinet is indeed not very good: WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. I just noted that the article was not tagged for any Wikiproject, probably explaining the low participation here. I've provisionally tagged it for WP Journals and WP Magazines. --Randykitty (talk) 17:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Dusti^*poke* 18:23, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

References:

1. 1. Det Svenska Modeundret is a book published by Norstedts, the oldest publishing house in Sweden, and p.118-120 deals with Vestoj.

2. 2. This reference is from the University of the Arts London Research Online Library. This is the largest art and fashion university conglomerate in Great Britain.

3. 3. This article is about Vestoj’s first issue on SID, which is the online publication of Pressbyrån, the largest chain of newspaper and magazine stores in Sweden. It is written by Johan Wirfäldt, one of Sweden’s most prominent media journalists.

4. 4. This article is also on SID, written by Fredrik Strage, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fredrik_Strage, one of the most prominent journalists in Sweden dealing with popular culture.

5. 5. This link is the online publication for AnOther Magazine, one of the most respected fashion magazines worldwide with over 606,930 readers (http://www.anothermag.com/content/advertising/Another-Media-Pack-2011.pdf). Other interviewees in the series An Intellectual fashion include Harold Koda, curator at the Met Museum in NYC, Suzy Menkes of the International Herald Tribune, Didier Grumbach, chairman of the Chambre Syndicale de la Haute Couture, Caroline Evans Professor in Fashion History and Theory at Central Saint Martins, the artist Maurizio Cattelan, the writer Douglas Coupeland and the philosopher Bernard-Henri Lévy.

http://www.anothermag.com/current/An_Intellectual_Fashion

6. 6. This reference appeared both in print and online, Svenska dagbladet is Sweden’s largest daily newspaper. Vestoj’s editor is quoted in the main article and Vestoj is described as one of the best in the crop of new fashion publications in a sidebar that also mentions Condé Nast’s LOVE.

7. 7. Same as point 5! Donatien Grau who edits the column also regularly works with Palais de Tokyo in Paris, has published a book on contemporary art and philosophy for Sternberg Press, has lectured at Cornell University and writes for the Huffington Post.

Delete Non notable fashion magazine. - MrOllie (talk) 19:14, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Don't Delete This claim is baseless according to the Wikipedia definition of Notability - the list of references for this article clearly show significant coverage in independent and reliable secondary sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oltedal (talk • contribs) 08:45, 17 July 2013 (UTC) — Oltedal (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
weak keep I'm trying to find some reason to make an exception. The board of editorial advisors is in fact exceedingly distinguished in the field. This is actually a series of individual topical issues, each with a special title, and there are 3 so far, It's not exactly an academic journal, nor is it exactly a fashion magazine--it's the sortr of hybrid publication in the fine arts, generally distributed through informal channels, and I would extent as broad a use of the inclusion criteria as possible to such publications. This sort of publication is extremely difficult to track down, but people in the subject field seem to have found it: cf: . (btw, There is actually another source . H Ekström, "By the Secret Fashion Concil. Project No 1-jewellery collection" which contain the following paragraph: (on p.3, in google translation "Last spring released analysis oriented fashion magazine Vestoj a special issue of fashion and magic, with articles skivna of professors in Fashion Studies, curators and fashion journalists. VI magaz-ment editor Anja Aronowsky Cronberg, who previously worked with ACNE-magazine wrote the following "fashion, just like magic, refuses to be defined in any one way; rationalists anlyses does not apply... ") However, it is not notable in the usual way if viewed as an academic journal, because altho we do not use the GNG for academic journals, but rather the criterion of being in major indexes, this does not seem to be in any. Viewed as a fashion magazine, there is in my opinion no really firm criterion, but it does not meet the basic screen of being listed in WorldCat, which means that it is not in any US or major UK academic library. But technically, the publications about it cited in this discussion & in the article do meet the GNG. If we really do mean the GNG as a standard, we should follow it. Incidentally, it's worth seeing their contents display: click on any of the issues at its home site, for example and play the video. DGG ( talk ) 03:05, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.