The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 00:31, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Vmoto[edit]

Vmoto (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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promotional article from an editor who appears to be WP:CONTENTFORKING/WP:WALL on a non notable organization that lacks in-depth significant coverage in reliable sources independent of them thus do not satisfy WP:NORG. A before search is identical to the sources already existing sources in the article, which is, almost all of them are mere announcements thus do not meet WP:SIRS. Celestina007 (talk) 15:22, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. Celestina007 (talk) 15:22, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. Celestina007 (talk) 15:22, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. Celestina007 (talk) 15:22, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of China-related deletion discussions. Celestina007 (talk) 15:22, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. Celestina007 (talk) 15:22, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there. Please note that Vmoto is also known as Vmoto Soco, the international distributor of the Super Soco brand.

Super Soco was the no.1 electric motorcycle in France in 2020, it was also the top selling electric scooter in the United Kingdom in 2021.Inchiquin (talk) 15:41, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment — Thank you creating the article but Please can you show any sources that show the organization satisfies WP:NCORP? I’m not seeing any reliable sources that substantiate that the organization possesses in-depth significant coverage in reliable sources independent of them. Even using the other name you provided above “Vmoto Soco” I still do not see anything tangible that shows this particular organization is notable. Furthermore notability isn’t attained via proximity to a “notable entity”, but is deemed notable by its own merit. Celestina007 (talk) 16:04, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, allow me a minute or two, and I'll explain the thought processes underlying the creation of this article, and this should shed some light onto the question of meeting the criteria of notability.

A few weeks ago I created the article on Super Soco, a popular brand of electric motorcycle. At the corporate level, the Super Soco brand is controlled by a number entities with a somewhat Delphic relationship, which is not particularly easy to untangle. So when I booted the article on

Super Soco, I opted to focus on the brand, side-stepping the thorny question of which group was in control of the brand.

After creating the Super Soco article, I started to unpick the details, and I realised that the approach that I took on the page was probably wrong.

Essentially, the corporate structure that governs the brand Super Soco somewhat resembles a Push-me-pull-you, whereby you have two

independent heads on both ends, with Super Soco being the body in-between. One of the heads is Shanghai-based Super Soco Intelligent Technology, with

the other head being the Vmoto Soco group (which essentially falls under the control of the Perth-based company Vmoto).

As I have best determined, these two companies struck a deal in 2020, and as a result which Super Soco Intelligent Technology controlled all Super Soco sales in China, whereas Vmoto Soco gained the right to market the brand everywhere except China.

Super Soco proved to be a hit in Europe, thus Vmoto Soco ended up controlling the most successful market for the brand.

But not only that: As part of the 2020 deal, Super Soco agreed to move all of their production into the Nanjing factory that was owned by Vmoto, and

so effectively all the Super Soco bikes, be they destined for China or elsewhere, are produced in the factory controlled by Vmoto.

So there is a bit of a web to have to untangle here.

After I punched out the Super Soco article, I realised that I needed to do an article on both Vmoto and Super Soco, as it wasn't going to be possible to skirt around the question of brand ownership.

The point of the above, is that Vmoto (Vmoto Soco) and Super Soco are basically joined at the hip. It is hard to split between Vmoto and Super Soco. In other words, the notability of Vmoto rests on the question: Is Super Soco notable?

Here, I think Super Soco is on pretty solid footing. It is one of the more successful e-motorcycle brands globally, on par with the likes of Zero Motorcycles of California.

One final point I should mention is that some of the details in the Super Soco article are not quite correct, as when I wrote it I didn't fully comprehend the ownership structure. So, for example the deal between Ducati and Super Soco and relationship with former Moto GP champion Jorge Lorenzo

should actually relate to the Vmoto/Soco company, rather than the Shanghai-based Super Soco company.

All in all, it isn't a particularly easy corporate structure to understand, but in a nutshell, almost all the activities of Super Soco outside of

China will relate back to Vmoto.Inchiquin (talk) 14:24, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• I've now added a reference that should unambiguously meet the notability critera raised above by Celestina007. The other critique was that the articles (Super Soco and Vmoto) are a 'walled garden', I'm pretty sure I can fix that. I'll add some content to tie the Super Soco article into the issue of carbon emissions and the broader clean tech sector.

German Vmoto article[edit]

Link to German Wikipedia article on Vmoto, which was created over a year ago: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vmoto Inchiquin (talk) 15:52, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

New Reference[edit]

In response to Celestina007's critique, I spent some time sifting through the internet, and I identified a source which unambiguously meets the WP:SIRS.

The article is one from 2019, titled "Ducati partners with Aussie electric bike and scooter company Vmoto", published on News.com.au. News.com.au is a major news website, thus a reliable, independent, and a secondary source. Secondly, as is evident from the headline, it contains significant coverage of the subject, Vmoto. Finally,it concerns a deal between with Vmoto and the famous Italian brand Ducati, and thus is also notable.

One point I should mention, is there is no shortage of sources on Super Soco across the net, in many different languages, and the majority of these fall within the sphere of Vmoto Soco (Vmoto), which, as I've noted above, are the international distributors of the brand. However, most of these sources don't even mention Vmoto, as very few of the writers understand the arcane relationship between the brand and the two controlling entities (Indeed, I didn't understand it myself until recently)Inchiquin (talk) 12:57, 10 December 2021 (UTC).[reply]

New Links[edit]

To address the concerns that the Super Soco/Vmoto articles risk becoming a 'walled garden' I've added a couple of new sections in Super Soco, which link to other articles. Firstly, I created a section on carbon emissions, which links to the page on the same subject.

Secondly, I created an article on the competition, with links to the wiki articles on Askoll and Niu. Inchiquin (talk) 11:40, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
  1. Haselhurst, David (2010). "Scooters Go Electric; David Haselhurst checks out a Chinese-built, Europeandesigned transport option". Money. No. 122. pp. 92–93. Archived from the original on 2021-12-13. Retrieved 2021-12-13 – via Gale.

     The full citation is available here from EBSCO Information Services.

     The article notes: "Shares in an Australian company importing motor scooters from China have had a very bumpy run since listing in 2006 as Vmoto (ASX code VMT). But it seems the company is poised for a turnaround in coming months. Work is under way to more than double the size of its now wholly owned manufacturing plant in Nanjing, China, and expand its growing global presence in petrol and electric motor scooters and all-wheel-drive vehicles." The article notes, "In 2006, Vmoto joined the Australian Securities Exchange with a back-door listing through the shell of a one-time dotcom boomer company, Optima Corp."

  2. Haselhurst, David (2012). "Scooter injection. David Haselhurst won't park his scooter shares just yet". Money. No. 145. p. 89. Retrieved 2021-12-13 – via EBSCO Information Services.

     The article notes: "The company has had a bumpy run since listing on the ASX as Vmoto in 2006 to import Chinese-made scooters under founding managing director Patrick Davin. In 2001, Davin was a marketing executive in the iron ore exporting business. Sent to China to seek orders for ore, he was offered a most unusual barter deal - swapping Davin's ore for a load of motor scooters to be sold in Australia. Although that deal didn't come off, it sparked an awareness of the potential for Chinese manufacture of "knock-offs" of classic European motor scooters. With other backers, Davin sold his first Chinese-made scooter - a Vmoto - here in 2002. Davin has long since moved on but in the years since Vmoto's listing it has persisted in overcoming various manufacturing, supply and cash-flow problems."

  3. Blue, Tim (2008-01-16). "Criterion". The Australian. Archived from the original on 2021-12-13. Retrieved 2021-12-13.

     The article notes: "Vmoto acquired the 1.2ha Nanjing site for $US750,000 last September and will fund the Stage 1 construction schedule internally.Sales of scooters in Australia are small beer: about 15,000 a year, of which 3500 are Vmotos -- the second-biggest brand after Honda. ... Vmoto lost a tad over $1million last year, but looks likely to move into profitability this year. Criterion has always liked the story, and more so since the price has eased to about 11c. It must be a speculative buy."

  4. Stevenson, Harry (2021-03-03). "Vmoto Ltd" (PDF). Euroz Hartleys Securities Limited. Archived from the original (PDF) on 2021-12-13. Retrieved 2021-12-13 – via Australian Securities Exchange.

     The analyst wrote, "VMT has released unaudited preliminary final results for the full year ended 31 December 2020. Results for the year were strong across the board with the company exceeding our previous forecasts (adjusted for impact of share based payments approved late in the year). With the award of the of VMT’s largest B2B order from strategic partner Greenmo Group in early FY’21 we look for a step change in unit sales through FY’21 with the company set to benefit from easing of lockdowns across Europe and continued transition to E-vehicles. [two more sentences about the company's product launches and the analyst's adjustments to the forecast]."

  5. Stevenson, Harry (2020-11-06). "Vmoto Limited" (PDF). Euroz Hartleys Securities Limited. Archived from the original (PDF) on 2021-12-13. Retrieved 2021-12-13 – via Australian Securities Exchange.

     This is another analyst report written by Harry Stevenson.

  6. Stevenson, Harry (2021-08-21). "Vmoto Limited" (PDF). Euroz Hartleys Securities Limited. Archived from the original (PDF) on 2021-12-13. Retrieved 2021-12-13 – via Australian Securities Exchange.

     This is another analyst report written by Harry Stevenson.

  7. Hemming, Richard (2015-05-09). "Tesla's two-wheeled scooter rival powering ahead but lags in volume growth". The Australian. Archived from the original on 2021-12-13. Retrieved 2021-12-13 – via Gale.

     The article notes: "The ASX-listed Vmoto produces electric motor scooters from its manufacturing facility near Nanjing in China, while Tesla Motors is a Silicon Valley electric car company. ... Both have increased their forecast profits for the current year. Vmoto aims for revenue of more than $69m based on selling 60,000 units, to produce a net profit of about $6m. ... Vmoto says it aims at revenue growth of 50 per cent, yet its volume growth is only 20 per cent."

  8. Rice, Denice (2007-03-04). "A big V for WA victory". The Sunday Times. Archived from the original on 2021-12-13. Retrieved 2021-12-13.

     The article notes: "Patrick Davin has a pretty clear goal -- world domination -- and he's heading there on the back of a scooter. A Vmoto scooter. European inspired, WA designed, Chinese manufactured and sold in Australia, New Zealand, the US and the United Arab Emirates, the Vmoto already has an international pedigree."

  There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Vmoto to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".

  Cunard (talk) 10:05, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Hi Cunard. The sources above show that the company has been around for a lengthy spell, and my feeling is that does add weight the the 'notability' factor. That said, I feel article should pass the notability test just on back the relationship with Super Soco, which in many European countries is a mainstream brand.

I did consider the possibility of merging the Super Soco/Vmoto articles but I don't think this option is really viable, as the two companies have distinctive identities: Super Soco is a recent Chinese start-up, whereas Vmoto (as highlighted in the sources above) is primarily an Australian company that has been around for some two decades. Inchiquin (talk) 17:48, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree Inchiquin - Vmoto has some operations with Super Soco, but has its own separate manufacturing facility and distinct business, so I think that qaulifies a distinct article. Deathlibrarian (talk) 00:02, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Seems notable enough to have its own wikipedia article. More sources would help a lot. HelpingWorld (talk) 01:17, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: more time would be helpful to assess the sources Cunard identified
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Star Mississippi 18:50, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Keep. There is an abundance of RS here featuring this company from major Australian media sources (Sydney Morning Herald, The Age, The Australian etc)...plus plenty of material from e vehicle/scooter/bike media. Vmoto is an established firm in the scooter market, it would appear pushing the new electric vehicle market in Australia. IMHO I don't know why this article has been put up for RFD with this level of RS sourced. Deathlibrarian (talk) 23:39, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - I've added a bit more content to cover over some of the export activity and more recent developments with the company, included a few new sources. Cheers. Deathlibrarian (talk) 23:58, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for adding the new sources (in keeping with the suggestion of HelpingWorld, above). Those were actually very good sources, especially the one relating to the MotoE World Cup.

I'd completely overlooked that one. The involvement of the Vmoto Soco group in the event is a strong indicator that it is perceived as a mainstream motorcycle brand in Europe and adds weight to the notability of the organisation.

I'll see if I can also add some more sources to the article over the weekend. Inchiquin (talk) 02:42, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

My real job is as a business librarian, so I can look up some databasese and add a bit more to this as well. Deathlibrarian (talk) 04:10, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete as per nom - Celestina007. This AfD is similar to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Revolt Motors. Surprisingly same creator has created all three pages including Super Soco within a span of time. Also note, Revolt Motors in India is selling re-badged Super Soco electric bikes. In short, all these three pages are part of a coordinated effort to push the brand narrative. -Hatchens (talk) 19:02, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Hi Hatchens, could I politely suggest that you please not throw around pejorative suggestions about editors without any supporting evidence?. Almost everyone here has not had a problem with the article apart from yourself, albeit with the suggestion by some that it needs a re-write, which is gradually progressing.

For those who aren't familiar with the background behind the above, the editor previously tagged the Revolt Motors page for RFD, based on an unsupported claim that I worked for a company called RattanIndia. The same assertion seems to be being made again, except the suggestion now is that I work not for RattanIndia, but for Super Soco/Vmoto (the two aforementioned companies are competitors, by the way, and seem to be currently locked in some kind of ugly dispute. I intend to mention this in the two articles as soon as more detail comes to light).

Why is it only these few pages that you seem to be fixated with? Why not the askoll or Niu Technologies pages, which are actually very similar, yet without anyone apparently calling for the deletion of these pages? And again, I raise the question as to why no-one has had any problem with the | German Vmoto page1, which has been up on Wikipedia for over 12 months now, without ever meriting a single deletion nomination?

I would guess the primary reason as to why none of these have been tagged for deletion is because one of the fundamental principals of Wikipedia is Good Faith If you haven't got any supporting evidence that an editor is paid by a company, please don't suggest as much. Almost every editor on Wikipedia is not paid for their contributions, myself included, and most will invariably find such assertions objectionable.

I actually suspect that the issue of articles being created for payment on Wikipedia is far less common than many editors assume, but I am getting a bit off-track.

Please note, if your beef is with the way any of these articles are written, feel free to re-write them. That is what I do when I find content on Wikiedia that I think is objectionable, and in almost all cases, it is the ideal course of action.

1 link: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vmoto Inchiquin (talk) 01:07, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Hatchens As far as I am concerned, there is a quite a bit of media supporting notability of this company. Vmoto is one of the frontrunners for electric scooters outside Asia, especially in Australia, and pushing electric scooter sales in Europe. It is the O/S distributor for Super Soco, which I believe is one of the biggest brands for electric motorbikes in many countries in Europe. Vmoto is an international company with offices in a number of European cities. In short, there is enough media here to support this Vmoto page, and your arguments (which seemed to be unproven?) about its connection to any other page is not relevant. I've been editing and adding to this page, and I'm certainly not part of any promotion campaign (nor do I work for any of these concerns, nor in the automotive industry). Deathlibrarian (talk) 23:17, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment- Checking Nexis Uni, there are at least 400 articles on there mentioning VMOTO. I've added about 10 new ones here, from sources such as *The Australian* and *The West Australian*, which are both top news mastheads here in Australia, as well as more finance and automotive/tech industry sources. This article is pretty well referenced by RS, and I would advocate that it should come off RFD now. Deathlibrarian (talk) 00:11, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: Seems to me to pass WP:NCORP. Not all of the references are of stellar quality, but I view enough as being. The article will benefit from the removal of those which are churnalism Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 13:59, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. I was incorrect and have struck my prior opinion. I was premature and made misassumptions about the referencing. The references are almost all churnalism and this is WP:ADMASQ. The org has not been proven to pass WP:NCORP. Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 14:07, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Faddle

I couldn't help but notice that just a few lines above your comment about churnalism, one editor pointed out that the company has been covered in The Australian and The West Australian, both of which are major mastheads in Australia.

The fact you have overlooked this comment is a strong indication that some of the editors here don't understand the significance of the Australian sources that are referenced. Certainly, next to no-one in Australia would describe articles in the Australian or The West Australian as 'churnalism'.

In fact, there is one even more significant and credible source I recently noticed which hasn't even been mentioned here yet:

The Australian Financial Review, November 9, 2019: The Australian start-up riding the global e-scooter craze.| Link to Financial Review Article

This was a feature article in a major Australian masthead.

I might note that the fact that the company was subject to a major write up in the Fin Review is also solid evidence for WP:NCORP, even if you completely disregard all of the other 25(!) referenced sources.

P.S Once again, why is it that so many here overlook the fact that there has been | German Vmoto page, active for 12 months now? Why is it that the German Wikipedians don't seem to have a problem with the alleged 'notability' and 'churnalism' issues that so many here keep banging on about?. Isn't the fact that there is a long-standing German Vmoto Wikipedia page pretty strong evidence for WP:NCORP by itself? Inchiquin (talk) 15:30, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As most editors know, other language versions of Wikipedia have different rules; doubtless that is the reason why no-one has commented on the matter. The English Language version is probably the most stringent. Having an article elsewhere in another language version is of inters, but not of relevance.

Any article stating with the location among its very first words has the immediate red flag saying "Press release or regurgitated press release" and many otherwise reliable media outlets will take PR pieces, even with a bylined article. This is a matter of judgement. Mine is that it is churnalism. I used to write press releases for part of my living, and place them with journalists. They are formulaic, and for some reason journalists like them that way. Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 15:39, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Faddle (sorry if I got your name wrong, by the way.)

The English Wikipedia has more stringent standards...really?. Any regular user of the site would know the claim is doubtful. If the standards are so high, why is it that the occasional Spider Man villain Mister Negative warrants a feature article, or likewise, the occasional Green Lantern villain

Necron? These are fictional characters, who hardly anyone knows about, and have next-to-no real-world relevance. I'd like to say these are isolated example, but no, Wikipedia is full of article on this kind of pop culture trivia.

This is what I find so bizarre about these debates around notability. No one seems to have a problem with the countless articles about highly obscure, fictional characters, but when it comes to real-world companies, you'll get these often pedantic arguments rolled out that an article isn't justified, despite the fact that these companies have large fan bases, and have been featured in major newspapers (in contrast to, say, Mister Negative?).

Your opinion on journalism is fair enough, and you aren't alone in that view. However, you would surely have to agree that this is a minority view, the majority of people wouldn't consider a major article in a masthead such as the Fin Review to be churnalism. Inchiquin (talk) 16:38, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

*Comment HI Fiddle^Timtrent I noticed you've made the statement that the RS here supporting notability is churnalism. This is incorrect, I've spent quite a bit of time finding these articles on the news database *Factiva*. There are a number of articles from the major newspapers here in Australia, including The Sydney Morning Herald, The West Australian, The Australian, The Australian Financial review - together, these four are the main Sydney, West Australian, National and Financial Newspapers for Australia respectively. Those articles at least are *not* churnalism, and would certainly be considered RS. If you like, we can follow this up with the WP:RSN to confirm that they are acceptable sources, if you want to contest it, but it would be obvious to any Australian Wikipedia Editor. Deathlibrarian (talk) 22:59, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Curious if there is any hope here using WP:BASIC.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Missvain (talk) 00:09, 24 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

*Comment I noticed this in an article about trends in the moto/scooter market in the Netherlands: The electric motorcycles and scooter segment is the largest in the entire Europe and the top seller manufacturer is the Australian V-Moto, advanced in 4th place in the industry with a spectacular +930.6% already at 5.8% of market share.

View source: https://www.motorcyclesdata.com/2021/11/26/netherlands-motorcycles/

If the details in the article are right, and Vmoto controls 5.8% of the Scooter market in the Netherlands, I can't see how there can be any justification for this article remaining in the afd bin, in light of everything else we know about the company.

I suspect there is truth in what is stated in the article, as there are other indications that the brand is popular in Europe (for example, the existence of the German Vmoto Wikipedia page, as alluded to previously, which was created over 12 months ago). Inchiquin (talk) 23:56, 27 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I mean, yes someone (was it you?) mentioned that Vmoto/Super soco is big in Europe - so here we have a reference that vmoto is the biggest brand in the Netherlands, so I would think that would make them notable...I might check the wording of WP:NCORP. That reference is probably worthy of inclusion in the article, may be you should add it in? (or I'm happy to). I had a look at the German article, there was a reference or two in there this article could use, but I will have to translate them. Though, I thought this article is pretty solid with all the Australian masthead articles.. (and I am still confounded why the delete votes are ignoring them!?). Deathlibrarian (talk) 03:48, 28 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.