- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was to keep the article. (non-admin closure) Mhhossein (talk) 05:30, 27 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- William Susman (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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A longtime composer, but cannot find independent sources to meet WP:COMPOSER or WP:NMUSIC. There's no notable composition, he doesn't write for theatre, and he doesn't meet any of the other four criteria either, nor is there any basis to claim the "Other" five are met either. On the WP:NMUSIC front, he releases everything on his own indie label, so there's no separability there. I can't source his airplay on radio to any more than the single programs listed. The majority of the references that were cited were namedrops or didn't actually mention Susman at all. The awards he received I can't find information for, so there's no way to determine if even the ASCAP awards mean anything. MSJapan (talk) 20:02, 20 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: in addition, the article seems to be copied word by word from his website, copyright violation. If not deleted, it needs a rewrite. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:45, 21 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Francesco Di Fiore (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (an article on one of the other composers for the Belarca label) was deleted for copyvio reasons in 2006 – don't see why it should take ten years more for this article that afaics primarily tries to misuse Wikipedia for promotional purposes. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:53, 21 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep, - assuming he is notable (AllMusic, Naxos, links in our film articles, American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers (ASCAP), I cut a lot of the flowery language, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:58, 21 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep
Delete – neither William Susman, nor his Belarca label, nor any of the artists performing for that label can be found on the www.naxos.com webite (Naxos does list recordings of labels such as Capriccio which they distribute). All five Belarca CDs are distributed through NaxosDirect (naxosdirect.com/labels/belarca-4365), which is an online shop. As far as WP:GNG goes that is as trivial as being available on Amazon... There simply aren't enough independent non-trivial reliable sources for this composer. His name is mentioned in the Native New Yorker (film) article, and that's about as far as Wikipedia can go imho. ASCAP also is as trivial as trivial goes if no independent reliable description (as opposed to mere mentioning) can be found that describes this as meaningful for this artist. I tried hard to find out whether it would be possible to keep Belarca Records (currently a redirect to the William Susman article) as an article that would group the information on this composer and the related (groups of) artists and recordings with AfD notices, but it simply doesn't seem feasible under Wikipedia's current notability standards. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:35, 21 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Changed to "Keep" per Voceditenore below. --Francis Schonken (talk) 04:43, 23 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Originally I had said, at the William Susman AfD, that I didn't think Belarca Records would be viable as stand-alone article, however, this may be sufficient independent reliable sources on their CDs for such article:
- So the article could be somewhat like this: its lead section about the label's founder and the Naxos distribution;
- First section about artists and ensembles: current AfD articles that may redirect to this section:
- Also the formerly deleted Francesco Di Fiore may redirect here
- Second section about the label's releases. Current AfDs that may redirect here:
- Other titles can be made into redirects to this section too.
- (sorry for the unusual presentation of this plan: I created this reply on a separate page in my userspace in order to post it as a now substituted template on several AfDs concurrently) --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:15, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- The problem with this, if I have understood you correctly, is that Belarca Records is not a notable label and currently redirects to William Susman, who at least has a marginal notability. It is basically no different than a self-published book. It has very few recordings, and all of them including or devoted to Susman's work. And note that it is marketed through Naxos Direct, which, as has been pointed out. is no different to Amazon or CDBaby. It is not a sub-label of Naxos Records. Finally, small labels like this draw their notability from the notability of the artists and ensembles who record for them. If none of them are independently notable, then neither is the label. In my view, this is not helpful. The decision should be made on each of the artist/ensemble articles separately. This kind of transclusion of a sub-discussion also causes a potential mess in AfDs. Voceditenore (talk) 09:16, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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- This should still not be an editable subsection, in my view, but I agree that keeping the discussion in one place is a good idea, although I really think this proposal to redirect all the articles to a non-notable record label is very misguided. Voceditenore (talk) 09:46, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- As I see it a non-redirect Belarca Records would need to pass WP:GNG and/or Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies). There's nothing misguided about trying to find out whether that would be possible. "If none of [the artists] are independently notable, then neither is the label" seems far more misguided, and not a notability standard as applied anywhere on Wikipedia. Belarca Records passes WP:GNG or it doesn't. Whether the required multiple independent non-trivial reliable sources are on its founder, its artists, its releases, or whatever else that highlights the company, does not make a difference. Compare List of cantatas by Christoph Graupner: maybe none of the cantatas listed there would pass WP:GNG for a separate article, but that doesn't prevent Wikipedia from having an article that treats a group of topics with possibly insufficient "notability" in their own right. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:20, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree but think I found enough independent mentioning of the composer, now assembled in External links, to also keep him.
- There's a decent bio from 1987, and his name comes up at recent film festivals. Some of them could become references. If he is not "notable", something is wrong with our criteria. - I heard his name yesterday for the first time, so feel without conflict of interest. I tried to make the article more concise and neutral, - help wanted. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:32, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, the above are mainly "trivial"-type links (trivial in the WP:GNG meaning of not giving substantial independent coverage, e.g. the Fromm link is a mere listing void of prose text, interviews don't add up to WP:GNG, others, like the short bio, don't seem independent of the (education) institutions with which the composer has a connection,...) – The CD reviews are most tangible as independent reliable souces, if they pass a minimum standard of professionality (which needs to be looked in to) – as these reviews are not independent of each other in William Susman's case (all on the same website, www.acousticmusic.com) they leave too little ground for an independent article. So I think the "Belarca Records" article solution best to get started with, with all the others as redirects. This also avoids deletion of article history, making it possible to revive independent articles once they would get enough body in sources that add up in the WP:GNG logic.
- For clarity: most of the above links can't be kept in the "External links" section of this article anyhow, per WP:EL. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:07, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- I have reformatted this. Please don't add editable subsections to AfD discussions. Voceditenore (talk) 09:22, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- I substituted the content of User talk:Francis Schonken/Belarca above in order not to confuse discussions. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:41, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Gerda Arendt has two contributions to this debate starting with a bolded !vote-word, can this be reformatted without giving the illusion of a double !vote? Tx! --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:51, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Gerda, I am not impressed with the current external links. 1. is the subject's own website. 2. Is a self-published website with reader contributed reviews. 3. simply attests to a commission from the Fromm Foundation. 4. is a paid press-release which states quite clearly at the top "McKenzie News Service can help increase attendance to your events. Details" It mentions "a breathtaking original score by William Susman" but this is not is not an independent review at all. It is an advert. 5. and 6. are duplicates of each other and are from a program at the U of M music school where the contents are supplied by the performer. It is not an independent review or evaluation of the work being performed or of the composer. 7. is a press release written by Susman for the film. 8. simply lists Susman as one of the five composers of this film's score. 9. is a brief article in a student magazine at Athabasca University. I'm holding off !voting at the moment, but as far as I can see, the only marginally notable award is the first ASCAP one, which he did win (it's for composers under 30). The second ASCAP one is basically an undergraduate grant. The films are not particularly notable. Most are very short, and the article on Native New Yorker (film) (a film lasting 13 minutes) was created by one of the editors who has created and/or extensively edited all the articles in this suite. The commission from the Fromm Foundation at Harvard is a plus. The AllMusic bio ditto. This is different from a simple listing of the CD and they're written independently. Some of Susman's music appears to have been played on two or three specialist radio stations. I can find no evidence of premieres or concerts featuring it in major venues or performed by notable ensembles/musicians, or even reviews of these premieres. This is a very niche genre so a certain amount of slack can be granted, but the question is how much. I'll see if I can find more coverage of his work and report back. Voceditenore (talk) 10:38, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Meets COMPOSER criteria 2 multiple times if one includes movies and shorts. Won numerous musical prizes, not well-known ones, but its hard to ignore that many, including film festival awards not in his biography. Has score composer credits for eighteen films. Likely meets, or comes very close to meeting the GNG from the sources on his page. The Steve 10:44, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Passes WP:MUSICBIO criterion 12. There was a two-hour program devoted to Susman and his work in 2003 on Concertzender, at the time part of the Dutch Public Broadcasting System). Note also that it is now a private station devoted to classical music and seems to regularly broadcast his work (10 times in 2016 [1]). Voceditenore (talk) 11:39, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 17:20, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.