< November 6 November 8 >

November 7

Crime in Serbia and Montenegro

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was rename as nominated --Kbdank71 16:25, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Simply an English language error. These were intended to be about crime, not criminals. Rename all CalJW 00:54, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

Category:United States scientists to Category:American scientists

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was merge. Martin 23:31, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Duplicate of far larger category:American scientists, which contains all the subcategories. Almost unused (20 is tiny in context). Parent would be category:American people by occupation if it had ever been properly categorised, grandparent would be Category:American people and subcategories all use "American". So let's continue the work of standardising these into normal English by merging this into Category:American scientists. CalJW 00:00, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

American geography by state

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was rename as nominated --Kbdank71 16:30, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is a follow up to the recent proposal to rename category:Hawaiian geography to category:Hawaii geography for "consistency", which thankfully looks like failing. These categories currently use nouns as adjectives and it would be much better to make them all consistent with the convention used for national geography categories:

Rename all CalJW 23:13, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

Category:Soviet spies to Category:Alleged Soviet spies

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus --Kbdank71 16:22, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This category is too misleading and POV for many of the cases included inside it. Additionally, a number of the people listed are still alive, and allegations of espionage, however qualified, can easily be grounds for touchy defamation suits. Adding the "alleged" on there makes it clear that this is a category created by others, not Wikipedia. I also propose creating as a compliment category Category:Convicted Soviet spies, which is where we can separate out those who actually were labeled as such by a court of law. Fastfission 21:38, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • See my page User:Nobs01 for the basis of this information.
The release of VENONA translations involved careful consideration of the privacy interests of individuals mentioned, referenced, or identified in the translations. Some names have not been released when to do so would constitute an invasion of privacy. VENONA Historical Monograph #4 nobs 02:36, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unfortunately our category name is "Soviet spies" not "People who the NSA has perhaps labeled as Soviet spies after taking consideration of the privacy interests." Additionally, the NSA is one particular POV on whether someone was a spy -- it is not the same thing as a conviction, nor it is the same thing as NPOV. --Fastfission 17:10, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Very good points! Dwain 02:28, 9 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I hope this answers any alleged legal concerns, and will be glad to entertain questions. nobs 06:36, 9 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Just to note - that was a comment on one of the above comments; it doesn't address mine, which addressed neither the "alleged legal concerns" nor mentioned Venona... Leaving aside the legal concerns (I personally feel we're unlikely to be sued) it's sloppy to have a list that includes everyone from Burgess to Wilson; it's so broad as to be meaningless. The consistent commentary on Venona articles is an American-centric strawman; is everyone ever fingered as a Soviet spy covered by Venona? This category is not a category of "individuals named as spies by Venona", and no-one I see here would be objecting to a category called that - instead, it's defined as a category encompassing people, anywhere, who spied for the Soviet Union across a seventy-year timeframe. The list mentioned above, of individuals fingered by Venona, would be a good approach - it lets us include clarifying details ("but this bit is thought by some sources to actually refer to so-and-so...") - the set of Venona individuals is known and finite, and thus suitable for a list. Splitting into "Alleged" and "Known" is good for reasons far better than legal concerns - it's encyclopedic. The category as we have now, which can encompass anyone plausibly accused through to someone confessed and convicted, is essentially useless for categorisation purposes. Shimgray | talk | 10:41, 9 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
See Another obtuse lecture. nobs 21:13, 9 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I am baffled as to what bearing that has here. I will, however, reiterate that repeatedly throwing around Venona is pretty much a strawman here - the category defines itself to encompass all spies, not spies outed by the NSA. Shimgray | talk | 22:19, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
This category lists people said to have spied for the Soviet Union by NSA, FBI and other federal investigations. Many are corroborated by defector testimony & Soviet Archives. Several denied they were spies or were never prosecuted. nobs 21:33, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
That proves our point. They were SAID TO HAVE SPIED. Not "spied" or "were convicted of spying." SAID to have spied. A government accusation is not fact. The fact that OJ Simpson was said to have committed murder by the Los Angeles County District Attorney does not mean he could be added to Category:American murderers. FCYTravis 03:29, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

American television people

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Rename. Martin 23:32, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Let's keep up the recent progress towards standardising the American people categories in line with normal English usage, the parent category, and the great majority of the like categories by renaming:

The American television executives and personalities are already in the prevalent form, so it would be good to remove the inconsistency. Standardising the American people categories will encourage thorough categorisation by removing the hassle of needing to check which form is in use for each occupation. CalJW 19:56, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

Category:Writers by state to Category:American writers by state

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Rename. Martin 10:40, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Another example of the American habit of overlooking the existence of the other six billion of us. Rename Category:American writers by state because that's what it is being used for. CalJW 19:36, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's more that most Americans don't know "state" can also mean "country," or that there are other countries that have federal systems with their own subnational states... Ok, you're probably just right. But anyway, support the rename, but I wonder if this is the time to take a look at all these American state people subcategories and ask how necessary they are. I'm not sure what it means to be an Alabama writer, unless you only write in and/or about Alabama. Is that who is included in that category, or does it include who lived in Alabama for any length of time, and then happened to become a writer, no matter where? Then there's the issue of the city-specific categories... Postdlf 04:18, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

Category:Wikipedians by alma mater: University of Maryland

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was keep --Kbdank71 16:07, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category is part of attempt to receate MySpace on Wikipedia. -James Howard (talk/web) 18:43, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot say I would mind seeing the system go. It is a backdoor mechanism to get editors into the general namespace. If there were a non-general category schema, I wouldn't care. But I cannot see a good reason to have any path from the general namespace into User:, unless it is a link to a user page from an article on that user. -James Howard (talk/web) 19:49, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe this should just be de-linked from Category:University of Maryland, College Park? Postdlf 04:21, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I could go for that, but I still think the idea is absurd. -James Howard (talk/web) 13:31, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I did not notice before that Category:Wikipedians by alma mater: University of Maryland was a subcategory of Category:University of Maryland, College Park. It is inappropriate for a Wikipedians category to be a subcategory of a regular category. I have removed the link. Taco Deposit | Talk-o to Taco 13:41, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I agree with the removal of Category:Wikipedians by alma mater: University of Maryland as subcategory of Category:University of Maryland, College Park. But, the "Wiki:UMD" category should not be deleted. BTW, "James Howard" is a great individual!! - QzDaddy 14:17, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I'll drop the nomination. -James Howard (talk/web) 15:35, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I take great offense at your slander.  ;) I am a proud alumni of the University of Maryland, College Park and will even be on campus tomorrow night! -James Howard (talk/web) 13:30, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

Category:University of Maryland, College Park Faculty

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Delete. Martin 10:43, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Cat is empty and served by Category:University of Maryland, College Park faculty -James Howard (talk/web) 18:32, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category:LGBT mythology

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 16:02, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if this should be renamed or deleted outright, but the contemporary term "LGBT" is entirely meaningless when applied to Ancient Greek culture and myths. Radiant_>|< 16:45, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

Category:LGBT computer and video games

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was listify --Kbdank71 15:57, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

A rather strange name, as it's not the games that are LGBT. In fact many contemporary games (especially from Japan) contain one or more LGBT people, but it seems meaningless to list all of those as 'LGBT games' unless sexual preference actually has a bearing on the game's gameplay. I think this is better represented as a list with some annotation. Listify, but if kept please rename to "Computer and video games with LGBT characters" or thereabouts. Radiant_>|< 16:45, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

Category:U.S. philosophers to Category:American philosophers

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Rename. Martin 10:14, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Following the trend to name American people cats using the descriptor 'American' as opposed to 'U.S.'. (Note: at present, the proposed cat exists as a "redirect") -Mayumashu 16:25, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

Category:Jewish film directors

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was keep --Kbdank71 15:50, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There is such a thing as over-categorization, especially as there will be inevitable arguments over who gets included. JW 16:05, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

Category:Admin abuse problem

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 15:48, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This seems to be an "anti-admin" category, and is not even properly labeled as a "wikipedia" category. The items in this category seem to be loosely connected. -Willmcw 07:56, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'd rather see this renamed properly than deleted outright. Friday (talk) 13:53, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

Category:Secretaries of State for Defence (UK)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was keep and populate --Kbdank71 15:48, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Can't help thinking that this was once full or had the intention of being so but is currently empty. Any ideas? Not sure if needs deleting, more of a discussion point on what to do with it doktorb 04:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Good question - it's not the only category like this either: Category:Secretaries of State for Education (UK) is the same. They're not new categories either. They are easily fillable, though, if anyone has the inclination, from the names in the parent Category:British Secretaries of State. These shopuld be kept, and if there a UK parliamentary WikiProject around, it should be told that these need filling. Perhaps uputting ((popcat)) templates on them all will help, too. Grutness...wha? 07:37, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I'll mark them with popcat. There are hundreds of articles in the parent category, which isn't really a very useful location for articles imo, and they should all be allocated to the subcategories. CalJW 12:26, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.


More