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November 12

Category:Anti-Semitic people

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus. David Kernow (talk) 05:40, 22 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Note: There has been significant IP canvassing for editors to oppose; see [1] and [2]. Jayjg (talk) 23:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Is being a Whip against the rules of voting in Wikipedia? Valley2city 03:28, 19 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Rename to Category:Antisemitic people, per November 2nd discussion. -- ProveIt (talk) 00:26, 13 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Moved from speedy. Vegaswikian 23:58, 12 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • If you look at anti-semite and semite, you'll see that they are two totally different things. The word antisemite is used exclusively to describe hatred of Jews, while semite refers to multiple ethnicities/races/cultures.--aishel 15:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Language may not define a people, but your example has the problem English people still exist. Saying "there is no X, only people who speak X" is usually inaccurate unless we mean constructed languages. Now if you want to say "being a semite just means speaking one of the Semitic languages and no one hates anyone for that" you'd be right. (Or so I assume, there are oddballs who will hate someone just for speaking a certain language) In any event I voted delete because it seems this category is protected and too often misused.--T. Anthony 07:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The problem with your statement, T. Anthony, is that it's comparing apples to oranges. The analogue between Semitic languages and Semites is not English language and English, but between Anglic languages and Anglites, which, oops! don't exist...nor, for that matter, do Anglo-Frisians... Cheers, Tomertalk 05:10, 20 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Red-herring as "Anglic languages" is a much newer termed that described a much narrower phenomenon. English is classed as one of the West Germanic languages and Germanic peoples is an article. For that matter Semitic is an article. Saying "Semite" is not an article, and that that proves anything, is almost like saying Finno-Permic isn't an article so this says something about Finno-Permic languages.--T. Anthony 09:51, 20 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Your logic is flawed here, but it's not really worth pursuing. There are no Germanites nor are there any Finno-Permites. The reason I say this line of discussion isn't worth pursuing, however, is precisely because it is a red herring--yours, however, not mine... An "antisemite" or "anti-Semite" is not a hater of "Semites", but a hater of Jews. The situation, however, is not that "anti-Semitism" was derived from "anti-Semite", but vv rather, such that the relevant term is Semitism, which is what anti-Semitism is supposèdly opposed to. As I've said on this page previously, if "Semitism" is such a clearly-defined and well-recognized [note the rational use of hyphens there] ideology or phenomenon, its proponents or opponents should be able to tell us all what it is. So, I'm still waiting...what is "Semitism", and how is it related to "Semites", "Semitic peoples" or "Semitic languages"? Tomertalk 01:44, 22 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Note: Canvassed vote. [3]

Results 1 - 10 of about 2,450,000 for antisemitism. (0.26 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 3,280,000 for anti-semitism [definition]. (0.10 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 643,000 for antisemitic. (0.28 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 1,710,000 for anti-semitic [definition]. (0.15 seconds)
So my vote is for it to remain hyphenated. Valley2city 22:38, 15 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Note: Canvassed vote. [4]

FWIW, I get much closer numbers when I google each of those pairs (almost identical for "Antisemite" and "Anti-Semite", but even by your numbers, in what sense is closer-than-3:2 ratio "almost exclusive"? Alai 09:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I agree; excellent analysis. Valley2city 19:28, 19 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Anti-Semitic canards

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus. David Kernow (talk) 05:39, 22 November 2006 (UTC) (Aside: Not sure how commonly-known the term "canard" might be...)Reply[reply]

Note: There has been significant IP canvassing for editors to oppose; see [5] and [6]. Jayjg (talk) 23:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Rename to Category:Antisemitic canards per November 2nd discussion. -- ProveIt (talk) 00:45, 13 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Moved from speedy. Vegaswikian 23:58, 12 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • If you look at anti-semite and semite, you'll see that they are two totally different things. The word antisemite is used exclusively to describe hatred of Jews, while semite refers to multiple ethnicities/races/cultures.--aishel 15:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Switch to abstain.--T. Anthony 09:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
A linguistic term can be used for the speakers of a language. There might be "no such thing" as an "Athabaskan", but there are peoples who speak Athabaskan languages. I think "Semite" would exist in the sense of a person who speaks a Semitic language. In that sense "Anti-Semitic" would mean opposed to the speaking of those languages I guess. "Antisemitic" I guess would mean whatever you want it to mean, but by tradition mean anti-Jewish views.--T. Anthony 07:19, 14 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You make a wonderful but entirely pedantic argument. How many Anti-Athabaskans can you name? Tomertalk 10:06, 14 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Funny and good point. Still I could have used a different example, like say Berber. Berber is also a sub-family of Afro-Asiatic and hostility to Berbers is something I've heard of. Although you're right that few people seem to have any hostility to Semitic speakers in general or even to Central Semitic language speakers. Central Semitic being the sub-family that includes Arabic, Hebrew, and Aramaic. Still I'm not sure why getting rid of the hyphen eliminates any linkage to Semitic as a concept. Antiproton has no hyphen, but it's still linked to the concept of protons. It's seems like an entirely different word would almost be better. Still I agree to the rename as the original word was apparently unhyphenated and those most interested in the issue prefer it.--T. Anthony 19:11, 14 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I haven't said anything about eliminating association with Semites or some nebulous "Semitic" concept...nor about hyphenating the word somehow lending legitimacy to such a concept. Personally, I think the argument is pretty weak. I'm not sure how the hyphen crept in over the years, but I do know that anti- is a perfectly acceptable and well-integrated prefix in English, and does not require a hyphen (nor does sub-, for that matter, as you used it above in subfamily). Another thing I know is that hyphens are used in English in order to create compounds consisting of two or more distinct and independent words ["anti" is not a word, it is only ever used as a prefix, and so it doesn't count in that class], so...my guess is that the reason the hyphen is used is because of the insistence on capitalizing Semitic, which, without a hyphen, would result in a camelcase word. The argument that Semitic must be capitalized will, I'm sure, now come gushing forth from all the opponents of dropping the hyphen, but that's to be expected. I only wish that they'd demonstrate the same devotion to arguing that "Biblical" should be capitalized (for the exact same reason that is the only possible rationale for insisting that "Semitic" must always be capitalized...)... Then they can run around wikipedia capitalizing "biblical" whereëver they find it. That should be fun to watch. Tomertalk 23:28, 14 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I actually voted rename, but using a hyphen when implying opposition to a group or thing is quite common to standard. See Anti-Americanism, Anti-Armenianism, Anti-Australian sentiment, Anti-Slavism, and other terms at List of anti-ethnic and anti-national terms.--T. Anthony 07:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I can't help but notice the preponderance of the "capitalization exception" I pointed out above... Tomertalk 09:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Umm yes of course there's a preponderance of capitalization, they're referring to the names of countries and language groups. I also capitalize the "A" in Ainu people, the nation of Armenia, and the "S" in Semitic languages. Is this incorrect? Since when?--T. Anthony 10:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Again with the pedantry. The word is not "Anti-Semitic_peoples", the original word was "Antisemitismus", coined specifically to be a more "scientifically sophisticated" term for "Judenhaß" (i.e., "Jew-hatred"). Argumentation about "Semitic languages" and the disgraced theory of "Semitic peoples" is little more than a red herring. In its original form, it is "Semitism" that is relevant, not "Semitic". W/o too much effort, if "Semitism" is such a well-established concept all on its own, you should be able to tell me what it is. ... and more to the point, how "Anti-Semitism" is opposition to "Semitism". This should be interesting. Go. Tomertalk 05:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It's not pedantry it's the English language and its use of spelling. In English Semitic is a capitalized proper term, just like Ainu or Basque. I think you dislike both terms, "antisemitism" or "Anti-Semitism." For what it's worth I wouldn't disagree with that. The term was created by a bigot and is perhaps intentionally easy to misconstrue. Perhaps we could simply rename this "Anti-Jewish canards" at some point and avoid the linkage to Semitic altogether. Still the notion that there is some relationship between Semitic peoples is not "disgraced." It may or may not be true, but the idea that the peoples who speak Semitic languages are related is a notion that's being studied. I don't know if they are related or not, but I don't see how the notion is disgraceful. Although on reflection I see you likely meant an older version of the idea. Also there is a similar notion of Hamitic peoples and that was disgraced.--T. Anthony 10:23, 20 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The problem with your statement remains that antisemitism is not "opposition to" either "Semites", "Semitic languages", "Semitic peoples" or even "Semitism", it is, and always has been, despite the efforts of antisemitic efforts at subterfuge, "hatred of Jews". Period. I never said anything about the link between Semitic peoples being "disgraced"--what is disgraced is the notion of "Semitic peoples" as an identifiable group [except by the languages they speak] altogether, especially, to clarify, in the racialist sense in which the notion was understood when the word "Antisemitismus" was first coined. I also never said, nor implied, anything about looking for links among populations of speakers of Semitic languages was somehow "disgraceful". I think we're having a failure, hopefully unintentional, to discern between the shades of meaning in my use of the word "disgraced", especially in the historical framework I was referring to. Oh, wait. Now I see you actally did understand what I meant. Tomertalk 02:07, 22 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm thinking the fuss is that "anti-semitic", rightly or wrongly, is still the more common usage in English. In the news "Anti-Semitic" -antisemitic gets 2940 hits, but antisemitic gets just 46. At Google Scholar "Anti-Semitic" -antisemitic gets 16000 hits, while "antisemitic" receives 3570. At the Library of Congress "anti-semitic" gets 58 hits, antisemitic got 6 with a spelling suggestion.--T. Anthony 07:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
For someone who voted rename I've probably argued the oppose side too much. I did oppose renaming to antisemitism at first and my reasons I think were sound, but I was working on incomplete information. I went rename in this case because the original word had no hyphen, the version on other language Wikipedias has no hyphen, and the organizations most concerned with this tend to prefer it without a hyphen.--T. Anthony 18:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Although much of what I said here is still true, I'm no longer convinced by it. German words change on going into English so changing them back is perhaps unnecessary or a bad move. The organizations I mentioned preferring the unhyphenated spelling is still persuasive, but on its own it's not compelling. The debate here has been negatively effective and made me consider voting against the rename. However I'm mostly uncertain so I have switched to abstain.--T. Anthony 09:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Note: Canvassed vote. [8]

Results 1 - 10 of about 2,450,000 for antisemitism. (0.26 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 3,280,000 for anti-semitism [definition]. (0.10 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 643,000 for antisemitic. (0.28 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 1,710,000 for anti-semitic [definition]. (0.15 seconds)
So my vote is for it to remain hyphenated. Valley2city 22:38, 15 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Note: Canvassed vote. [9]

Note: Canvassed vote. [10]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

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