- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: rename. There is no consensus on whether to delete or not, but there is consensus to rename this if it is kept. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:41, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Propose renaming Category:Russian painters from Saint Petersburg to Category:Painters from Saint Petersburg
- Nominator's rationale: standard pattern is e.g. Category:Actors from Chicago, Illinois etc. Moreover, not all painters from Saint Petersburg have been Russian (either as citizens or ethnically) Mayumashu (talk) 16:27, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I'm dubious about this. It's by the same guy who had "Leningrad School of art" deleted recently, & wrote a book on the subject. A quick sample showed actually none born there (though one infobox erroneously said one was), though all seemed to have been trained & lived there. Mind you I'm dubious about Category:Actors from Chicago, Illinois too. Johnbod (talk) 01:08, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- But by WP category naming convention, they don t have to have been born in St. Petersburg to be, so-called, 'from' there - they only have to have resided there Mayumashu (talk) 15:45, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Good Ol’factory (talk) 05:05, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- This category is the equivalent of Category:Television actors from Chicago, Illinois existing before Category:Actors from Chicago, Illinois was even created. postdlf (talk) 06:09, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support unless some one is going to argue that we need a "Non-Russian painters from St Petersburg" (or working in St Petersburg). I think that Catherine the Great attacted many foreigners to work on the city, so that the non-Russian element may exist. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:14, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support – we generally have 'People from X' leaving their nationality out of it (although Category:Actors from Chicago, Illinois is eventually part of Category:American people). We have Category:People by city in Russia, subcat (allegedly) of Category:Russian people, including Category:People from Saint Petersburg. An alternative is to upmerge the painters to Category:People from Saint Petersburg as no other occupations are subcatted in St P. Occuli (talk) 17:09, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I support the rename proposal over keeping the current name, but this category simply has no reason to exist. I don't think there are any other painters by city categories (based on a selective look at some of the larger painter categories, such as Category:American painters and Category:French painters), and I don't see a reason to start any as it's too overly specific of an intersection to be useful. Regardless, it's especially premature here where there is no parent Category:Artists from Saint Petersburg category, or any other people from Saint Petersburg by occupation categories. So upmerge as needed. postdlf (talk) 06:07, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Nominator here will support upmerge too - whichever is supported most by others Mayumashu (talk) 19:05, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Hmmm Obviously we rightly have several Italian "painters by city" categories like Category:Bergamese painters (from Bergamo), because this is a traditional art-historical way of classifying them, as "School of ...". The creator initially tried to create a "school of ..." category for St Pete's, based I think on a book he's written, but this was rejected here as a category, largely because he cannot yet be said to have won the world over to this view, & appeared to be stretching his claim too wide. I'm not bothered by the lack of a parent for "artists" - the Italians mostly don't have these. The case for Category:Painters from Saint Petersburg is stronger, as the claim is less, and the art was certainly a distinctive tradition to some degree. Many called Russian then would be regarded as Ukrainian, Georgian etc now, but there is also maybe a case for either including or excluding "expat" Germans or Italians etc settling in St P. Perhaps a note would be enough to clarify that "Russian" means here "native to the R Empire". I can see "Painters from New York" might be a sensible way to break up the colossal "American painters", if so desired, though I think London or Paris would be far less useful, as they would include the majority of major artists. I can't really decide. Johnbod (talk) 14:24, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- As you've noted, the Italian painters categories are a different case than St. Petersburg, because art history actually treats them as members of particular schools. That CFD has already rejected that attempt for St. Petersburg makes that line irrelevant here without any further support for that notion. More generally, breaking up large categories should not be a paramount concern, particularly if the effect is to force someone searching through Category:American painters, for example, to know a particular city with which the painter may have been associated so that they can identify the particular subcategory in which it may be found, which is almost never going to be how they are actually studied and organized in general reference works outside of Wikipedia. Which is why subnational categorizations should almost never intersect with the most specific occupation categories that exist; maintaining both "[nationality] painters" and "[artists] from [city]" seems the better way, and the size of the resulting categories (which are alphabetized and easily searchable) is irrelevant. So I still don't seem any reason for this category to exist, given that there is no showing that there was a St. Petersburg school of painting, and it would not be a good practice to meatgrind all of the painters by nationality categories through the myriad cities with which they were "from". postdlf (talk) 17:38, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Does not support renaming the category.
In the Russian wiki for the category "Artists of Russia" there is a subcategory of "Artists of Russian cities" and sub-subcategory "Artists of Moscow", "Artists of St. Petersburg" and some others. Logical continuation of such an approach for the English wiki. This allocation is justified by the fact that in Russia, because of its historical and geographical features that were not erased the differences between the cultural centers in relation to the artistic heritage and artistic tradition. And in particular, to the Fine Art tradition. At the same artists traditionally refer to the "Leningrad" or "Moscow" is not the place of birth, and not even attending college, but by the principal place of residence and participation in artistic life. Thus, among the artists of the Leningrad School in St. Petersburg - Leningrad were born not more than 25-30%, but 100% of their professional activities have been associated with Leningrad and lived in Leningrad, most of his life. For realistic art that is of particular importance. In Russian literature has long distinguished Saratov, Astrakhan, and some other provincial Art Schools. This topic has not received, until recently, the deep coverage in the literature because of political and economic reasons, as a consequence existed in the Soviet centralized funding of art (decades of Moscow's decisions on the allocation of money for the purchase of paintings, for holding major exhibitions, for publication of catalogues, and so on). Much of this financial dependence continues today. Therefore, artists and art historians deliberately avoided the opposition of the Moscow and regional schools of art and traditions, turning a blind eye to the phenomenon actually existed. With regard to ethnic composition, among the artists of Leningrad - St. Petersburg 20 centuries, besides Russian, as before, was a certain number of Ukrainians, Jews, Armenians and representatives of some other peoples of the USSR. They lived, studied and worked among Russian, but not ethnically distinct groups. They spoke in Russian, read Russian books and newspapers, taught children in Russian schools. Participated in exhibitions of Leningrad artists. Therefore, in their paintings, as well as in works of Russian artists, we first see an Era and the picturesque tradition of Leningrad-Petersburg, is common to all artists, regardless of their place of birth and nationality. In the work of "non-Russian" artists of Leningrad - St. Petersburg is not an isolated topic, a separate national existence, the opposition itself, its culture of Russian cultural tradition. This, however, prevents build for representatives of national minorities additional categories, uniting them is not by profession, but by national, for example, ‘The Armenians of St. Petersburg’. In general solving this issue for a separate country, it is advisable to orient the traditions established in this country, and carefully apply the general scheme, especially when it comes to culture. Leningradartist (talk) 08:40, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.