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December 16

Category:Extraterrestrial landers

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:09, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Per catmain Lander (spacecraft), see also disambig Lander and Landers. NickSt (talk) 23:51, 16 December 2013 (UTC) NickSt (talk) 23:51, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Even taken out of context, how many landers of extra-terrestrial origin are there? I'm guessing it's a number between -1 and 1. --AussieLegend (✉) 17:13, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Inactive extraterrestrial land probes

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:11, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose renaming Category:Inactive extraterrestrial land probes to Category:Derelict landers Category:Derelict lander spacecraft
Nominator's rationale: Main article is named Lander (spacecraft), it will be the subcategory of Category:Derelict space probes. NickSt (talk) 23:08, 16 December 2013 (UTC) NickSt (talk) 23:08, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with this proposition. NickSt (talk) 13:47, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Inactive extraterrestrial probes

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename per nom. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:15, 19 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Subcategory of Category:Space probes. Category for inactive (derelict) space probes. Extraterrestrial probe is a full equivalent (synonyme) for space probe. Space probe is a spacecraft that leaves an Earth orbit. NickSt (talk) 23:03, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as unnecessary categorization. No need to select inactive and derelict probes from probes in general, as there is a category tree with all probes, this isn't necessary. Further, per my initial comment, derelict and inactive are not equivalent, and determining if something is inactive or dead is also not clear. -- 65.94.78.9 (talk) 07:42, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • ICE and DS1 can probably be re-activated on command, maybe others. "Inactive" seems appropriate. Fotaun (talk) 01:40, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Destroyed extraterrestrial probes

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:21, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Subcategory of Category:Space probes. Category for destroyed space probes. Extraterrestrial probe is a full equivalent (synonyme) for space probe. Space probe is a spacecraft that leaves an Earth orbit. NickSt (talk) 22:58, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Extraterrestrial probes

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Space probes. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:26, 19 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose renaming Category:Extraterrestrial probes to Category:Active space probes
Nominator's rationale: Subcategory of Category:Space probes. Category for active space probes. Extraterrestrial probe is a full equivalent (synonyme) for space probe. Space probe is a spacecraft that leaves an Earth orbit. NickSt (talk) 22:54, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • If not synonymous, please show the difference between extraterrestrial probe and space probe. I think this is a duplicate thing. We must exactly know how to categorize the probes. Now active space probes only are in this category. NickSt (talk) 00:36, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • It all depends on what "extraterrestrial" means. Some definitions mean beyond Earthspace (beyond the Earth-Moon system), some are for beyond Earth orbit (by a restricted definition, the Moon is beyond, even though it orbits the Earth), some are for beyond Earth's atmosphere (100km), some are for above the lowest possible Earth orbit (150km). So, for a great deal of uses, beyond cis-Lunar space is extraterrestrial, thereby having lunar probes not be extraterrestrial. And if you use Earth orbit as your limit, suborbital space probes are not extraterrestrial. And depending on where you end Earth's atmosphere, low earth orbit is completely within the atmosphere. -- 65.94.78.9 (talk) 07:50, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Now de-facto they are splitted, and correct category name discussed here. They are subcategory of Category:Space probes and was splitted some time ago. NickSt (talk) 00:36, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per the discussion at inactive probes. There is not a good split between what is active and inactive, when considering probes in long term hibernation. Nor do we split other vehicles between say ships in commission and out of commission, so space probes should not be split. As the probes already exist in the space probes category under other categories in the tree, this is unnecessary categorization. -- 65.94.78.9 (talk) 07:50, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Active/completed/future probes/missions categorization are considered in the different sources, see [1] [2] for example. NickSt (talk) 10:56, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just because sources use the terminology does not make it a good categorization scheme for Wikipedia. Other active/inactive category trees have been deleted because it was a poor categorization scheme. -- 65.94.78.9 (talk) 05:09, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Earth satellites can be probes too. Fotaun (talk) 01:43, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • That is incorrect, there are many space probes that have only orbited the Earth. Rather the set of "Earth satellites" comprises many things that are not space probes. A communications satellite that orbits the Earth is not a space probe, but Sputnik 2, a satellite that only orbited Earth, was a space probe. -- 76.65.128.112 (talk) 06:04, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Floorball Championships

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:13, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: My speedy C2C nomination per Category:Sports competitions by sport was opposed without any reasonable arguments. NickSt (talk) 21:23, 16 December 2013 (UTC) NickSt (talk) 21:23, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The opposition to speedy did give reasons, even if you consider them inadequate. In bringing an opposed speedy to full CFD, it is usual to copy the speedy discussion here. Peterkingiron (talk) 12:44, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Wikipedians who own inexpensive cars

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 20:00, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose merging Category:Wikipedians who own inexpensive cars to Category:Wikipedians interested in automobiles
  • Propose deleting Category:Wikipedians who own inexpensive cars
Nominator's rationale: I don't think owning an inexpensive car is a good characteristic for collaboration. I'm not aware of other "Wikipedians by things-they-own" categorizations. Upmerge to parent should be sufficient here. Vegas is right. Delete this. Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:00, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Odd Grenland

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename all. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 06:47, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: The club changed its name ahead of the 2013 season, and the category-names needs to changed to reflect that. This would be uncontroversial and probably a speedy candidate, but I don't believe WP:C2D apply as the article wasn't moved after a WP:RM, so I'm taking it to a full discussion. Mentoz86 (talk) 19:43, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Wikipedians interested in chess

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: DELETE. The only entry is the creator who prefers it to be removed. -Splash - tk 21:06, 28 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: I find it hard to fathom that you might find someone who is interested in chess but who doesn't play chess. Only one user in this category vs 1800 in the chess players cat. Merge. Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:07, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. merge the players to Category:Wikipedians interested in chess, even though some may not be interested in writing about it, or
  2. delete the players, even though some would prefer to be in a category of ppl interested in writing about it
It seems to me that option 1 is better, because those not interested in writing can just remove themselves from the category. With option 2, the editors concerned may not even know that there is another category. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:05, 19 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I later discovered Category:Wikipedians interested in chess which had very few pages listed in it. As is the subject of this discussion, I wasn't sure if they were really the same thing, so I didn't make a redirect or request a merge, I just left it be... probably the wrong thing to do. At any rate, I much prefer Category:Wikipedian chess players. Other categories with the naming scheme "Wikipedian something" where something is usually a profession, belong to the parent category of Category:Wikipedians by skill. I suppose you could consider chess a skill, perhaps more fitting than calling it just an "interest". — MusikAnimal talk 18:00, 20 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Users of Ninja Enthusiasm

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename to Category:Wikipedians interested in ninja, with no prejudice against nominating, along with or after the Category:Ninja tree, to the nominated name. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 07:51, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose renaming Category:Users of Ninja Enthusiasm to Category:Wikipedians interested in Ninjas
Nominator's rationale: I don't know what Ninja Enthusiasm is, but count me in. Rename to something more standard. I wouldn't be against deletion either, fwiw. Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:06, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Users who know chant theory

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: RENAME to Category:Wikipedians interested in Gregorian chant. -Splash - tk 20:59, 28 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose renaming Category:Users who know chant theory to Category:Wikipedians interested in Gregorian chant theory
Nominator's rationale: better title per the head Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:05, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Wikipedians who do not smoke

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 08:14, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: No idea how this is useful to building the wikipedia. Delete as a trivial association. Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:45, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Single-platform free software

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: NO RESULT. This might normally quality for a re-listing by closing admin, but given the passage of a lot of time without any activity, that does not seem warranted. It is impossible to conclude any result here. Since this was being used as a possible test-case, I prefer not to declare even a no consensus. -Splash - tk 21:10, 28 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Categorizing a software based on it "only" being available on one platform is not defining, especially since all it takes is a single port to a new platform to invalidate this category. Categories should be, ideally, more enduring than that - thus we have a broad consensus to categorize software by the platforms it is available on, but categorizing software by the fact that it, at a given point in time, *isn't* available on other platforms is not worthwhile. This is a test nomination. There is a whole tree under Category:Single-platform software that I will nominate if this tree is deleted. Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:24, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There are several dozen categories; I prefer to do a test nomination to judge consensus here, and then do a wider nomination if it passes. I don't have an easy way to nominate dozens of categories at once...--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:02, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Obiwankenobi: The problem with a test nomination of part of a tree is that it will receive less scrutiny than a discussion of the whole tree. That creates the possibility of a merge being endorsed for the subset but not for the rest, which would then lead to proposal to unmerge the first set ... and unmergers cannot be done by bot.
If you don't want to nominate the whole tree without testing consensus, start by opening an RFC at WT:CAT, with notifications to the relevant WikiProjects. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:04, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@BrownHairedGirl: Can you at least opine, theoretically, on the whole tree, so I know where you stand? thanks. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:40, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Obiwankenobi: My initial inclination is that there has been a lot of single-platform software, some of which is defined by that fact ... and that while the most commercially-successful software is often ported across platforms, there is a significant category of software which was notable enough to merit an en:wp article, but was either not successful enough to merit porting, or too tightly bound to hardware to make porting viable.
However, I would want input from the more familiar with the field before making up my mind. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:08, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I would argue that the vast majority of software has historically been single platform. There have been oodles of programs written just for one platform, it's only with success that porting to other platforms takes place. But, I frankly don't think being only on one platform, or being on multiple platforms, is ultimately defining. What really counts is, what does the software do? For example, Google is, in some sense, single-platform, as you probably can't take their infrastructure and move it to sit on top of another OS - but in another sense, Google services themselves are multiplatform, as they are available to consumers via any web browser. Like classifying nationalities of people, we don't have "bi-national people", I don't think we should classify software this way either, as all software is either "single platform" or "cross platform" more or less, and to maintain this correctly we'd just need to constantly need to be shuttling articles from single to cross-platform over time.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:20, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There are some circumstances where it is highly significant. A killer application pulls customers towards a particular type of hardware. That terminology related to the era of personal computing, but similar issues existed with mainframe computers, where software was often proprietary and only available to the customers of that company's hardware. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:34, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Pacific Typhoon Season

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:43, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary category - duplicates Category:Pacific typhoon seasons. DexDor (talk) 06:46, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Mexican Legislative Branch of Government

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: NO CONSENSUS. But I would note that the category names as they stand seem clearly unsatisfactory. I suggest an editorial decision is taken following discussion within a relevant Wikiproject or similar. -Splash - tk 21:24, 28 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose renaming: Category:Mexican Legislative Branch of Government to Category:Legislatures of Mexico
  • Propose renaming: Category:Mexican Judicial Branch of Government to Category:Judiciary of Mexico
Nominator's rationale: Simpler name without adjective, describing the only two member categories (the federal Congress and the state legislatures) in the legislative category. Simpler name for the judicial category. Green Giant (talk) 05:23, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Copy of the speedy nomination
  • Category:Mexican Judicial Branch of Government to Category:Judicial branch of the Mexican government‎ – C2C: The name should match Category:Executive branch of the Mexican government‎ Green Giant (talk) 00:47, 12 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Category:Mexican Legislative Branch of Government to Category:Legislative branch of the Mexican government‎
      Oppose speedy There is no clear naming convention for this category three, and therefore C2C doesn't apply. Armbrust The Homunculus 10:07, 12 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      Comment - fair point, but I think both categories need a name which doesn't begin with "Mexican" and which doesn't have so many capitalized words. Maybe something like Category:Legislatures of Mexico (as it has only two members categories, covering federal and state legislatures) and Category:Judiciary of Mexico/Category:Federal judiciary of Mexico (the only members currently being just federal judicial articles)? Green Giant (talk) 12:46, 13 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      Oppose. Per Armbrust, C2C does not apply, so this needs a full discussion.
      There is a further problem that concepts such as "Judicial Branch of Government" are part of the constitutional theory of the United States, and are not necessarily applicable to other countries. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:53, 13 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      Arguably Mexico and many other nearby countries are influenced by US ideas, but I agree this needs full discussion. Remind me again, is there a procedure for moving to full discussion or do we wait until this gets to the bottom of the pile? Green Giant (talk) 13:35, 13 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Indigenous Australians from Western Australia

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:17, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: C2.C, per Category:Indigenous Australian people and Category:People from Western Australia. I am nominating the category here, instead of at WP:CFD/S, as I'm not sure that it is actually needed. It appears to be the only category that intersects indigenous Australian identity with location. Are similar categories needed for Australia's other states and territories, or is the case of Western Australia unique somehow, or should the category be upmerged? (Category creator notified using Template:Cfd-notify) -- Black Falcon (talk) 05:20, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
cmtbeing an Indigenous Australian is not just an ethnic tag, its a whole culture that predates "Australia" and a catch all which could be devolved further into its component parts which each have their own history, language, traditions, religions/dreamtimes etc. Much like Category:Native Americans by state suggest that there is room for ethnic categories Category:American Jews to a subnational level as well. Gnangarra
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:St. Louis sports players

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Sportspeople from St. Louis, Missouri. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:46, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: This category groups categories of players of sports clubs—including baseball, basketball, football (association and American), and hockey clubs—that are based in St. Louis, Missouri. It is essentially a category for sportspeople who have played for a club in St. Louis. For any individuals for whom this is a defining characteristic, there is Category:Sportspeople from St. Louis, Missouri; for all others, this category merely serves to make a tenuous connection between unrelated individuals based merely on having worked in the same city for a period of time. -- Black Falcon (talk) 05:08, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Mobile phone operating systems

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: MERGE to Category:Mobile operating systems. -Splash - tk 21:26, 28 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: The contents of these categories are very close. Most modern operating systems targeted at mobile platforms have versions which cover telephony, as well as versions which don't. In addition, with the rise of VOIP, even the humble ipod, which is not really a mobile phone, can be used to make phone calls. I don't think this distinction is useful, and given the contents especially from the sub-category level are pretty similar we don't lose much granularity by merging and we gain in simplicity. WE don't have an article Mobile phone operating system, only Mobile operating system. Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 03:23, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:First Nations languages with mobile apps

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: DELETE ALL. The discussion is clearly decisive; I attach minimal weight to Til Eulenspiegel's opening remarks, I'm afraid. -Splash - tk 21:45, 28 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: The fact that someone has written a mobile app about a language is not at all DEFINING of that language. Delete. Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 03:15, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
How is this actually useful, pray tell? There are thousands of languages; at some point, someone somewhere has written a computer application in one of those languages. Some of those computer applications will eventually be written for small, portable devices called mobiles. Why is this worth categorizing on?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:11, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Your philosophy seems to be if it's not useful to YOU, it's not useful to anyone else either, therefore why not err on the side of getting rid of it. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 17:10, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, my philosophy is, in generaly "usefulness" is a terrible reason to keep a category. Everything might be useful to someone, somewhere, but putting the burden of category maintenance just so satisfy those people is a bad idea. So yes, if a category is not DEFINING and in violation of WP:OCAT, we should delete it.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:43, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's what I figured. Not really a utilitarian philosophy, more sort of a contra-utilitarian one. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 18:15, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
WP:ITSUSEFUL is a blue link for a reason - but it's also a bad argument to keep. Also, instead of personal attacks on my own philosophy, why not try bringing a real argument to the table, or responding to my questions below - why don't we create new categories for rare languages that have books written about them, or websites devoted to them, etc? Certainly that could be "useful" to someone no?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:26, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
For centuries, sanity has been defined as "being useful to society" while insanity is distinguished by not being useful to anyone. The new-age hostility to this long-established concept and WP-thumping (to special vignettes written by Wikipedians) is starting to sound like Orwellian newspeak, ya know? so there is no point in having anything actually useful here, it is much more important to stand on things like literal legalistic definitions we made up ourselves to determine what is "notable" in OUR systemic bias is what will be "notable" for EVERYONE. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 22:52, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really understand what you're talking about. Being useful is one measure, certainly, and I would !vote to delete something that was completely useless, but I would also vote to delete many categories that person X may find useful because categorization - especially new categorization schemes, impose a burden on the wikipedia that is significant. Bad categorization, or massively incomplete categorization schemes, are sometimes worse than nothing at all. As for systemic bias, I'm really not sure where you're going with that - we're not talking about notability of articles here, we're talking about whether rare languages should have a tag on the bottom saying "someone wrote an app about me!" - I think it's trivial and frankly almost insulting to a thousand year old language that this is one of the three ways we categorize it.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:10, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
But why mobile apps? Why not "endangered languages with ISO encodings" or "endangered languages with PC-based freeware" or even "endangered languages with well-developed and currently-taught school curricula" or "endangered languages with websites devoted to their study"? What's so special about mobile apps and endangered languages? One category that could possibly work is "Software written in endangered languages" - which would categorize not languages, but actual software packages for which we have articles that are written in languages considered endangered or rare (we'd have to get some objective linguist description of same - looks like we have one at Category:Endangered languages) - this could be considered a DEFINING feature of that software, that it is written in or focused on an endangered language. But I don't think it's a good idea to categorize the languages themselves, as the presence or absence at a given moment in time of a single piece of software that uses that language would not be mentioned in the lede about that language and thus not WP:DEFINING.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:43, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
All languages, endangered or not, do have ISO encodings, courtesy of SIL, so there is nothing unique about that. Not many, though, have programs in iOS- or PC-based software, regardless if freeware or not. What the presence of several electronic software presence indicates, even for a minority language, is that its users and promoters doing what they can to keep it from sliding towards language extinction, especially when over 1000 languages around the world do go extinct daily. The power of Wikipedia is the ability to pull concepts together through categories. Software does not define the language, but the language strength does define the need for the software. CJLippert (talk) 22:26, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
it sounds like you're wanting to use the category system for advocacy purposes. this is almost always a bad idea. Also, I'm not convinced at all that all languages or even known written scripts have ISO encodings - especially if 1000 go extinct every day... Nonetheless, you haven't answered the question - why is the presence of an IOS app special, vs the presence of a dictionary for that language, or a curriculum, or a school which teaches it, or government programs focused on preserving it, or institutions focused on saving it, etc. there are lots of things one can do to save a language, and a piddly iphone app is probably the least level of effort - so I think it's a terrible idea to classify languages in this way for that reason.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:10, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't necessarily the presence of a mobile app that is of note. But rather having digital media programs, which happens to include a mobile app. The category titles proposed for deletion makes that inference, but, as said, I don't think the title is appropriate and the grouping is also too limiting. I am suggesting a recategorising, but not quite sure what is appropriate. This is why I'm voting for a weak keep, as I do not want to keep the categories as presented here, but the grouping in another context may be appropriate. CJLippert (talk) 15:39, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'd suggest taking it to the languages wikiproject and seeing if you can come up with a scheme. I don't think these categories, as they are, are salvageable. For example, [3] is a single app that covers many Canadian aboriginal languages; website gives grammars and details of many known Australian aboriginal languages ; in the wide world of the internet there are likely websites devoted to almost any known language, so again, while admirable, use of the category system to classify languages as to whether there is some media about them, somewhere, is not defining or unique about such languages (and preferencing digital media over written media doesn't make sense either) - so if we then say, ok let's group all languages that have written media about them, well, that is the same as all languages in the wikipedia; if there isn't anything written about them, we don't have an article about them. so, again, not defining.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:50, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have to take issue with that last assertion. Jimbo Wales founded wikipedia on the very premise that preserving languages is a good cause. The Wikimedia foundation is indeed very active in this area of effort. Are you going to suggest now that it might be a "bad thing"? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 14:20, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Til Eulenspiegel: Do you have any evidence that "Jimbo Wales founded wikipedia on the very premise that preserving languages is a good cause"? I have never read any such assertion, and am surprised by it. I thiught Wikipedia was created as a free NPOV encyclopedia that anyone can edit.
Please read WP:NPOV. Whether you I or you think that preserving a language is a good or bad thing is irrelevant to an editorial discussion; WP:NOTSOAPBOX. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:44, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, I have asked Jimbo whether he wants to comment on your assertion. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:51, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You were, no doubt, aware that he set out to do this in languages all over the globe, right? Do you know about all the coordination projects Mediawiki has for various continents' indigenous languages to try to help these languages be preserved, right? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 16:17, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Jimbo's goal in setting up the wiki is immaterial here. We aren't creating a category of 'languages for which a wiki has been created', and such a category would also be not defining for the language. I'm all for language preservation, but as an editor working in category space, these ones are so far outside the bounds of WP:defining that they need to go. It's a bad idea for a scheme in general, and the fact that some people want to keep only for advocacy purposes or because they believe this will somehow help save languages suggests use of the category system to promote a POV which is a no no. If you want to preserve languages, write an article about mobile apps for endangered languages.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:32, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
He didn't exactly say I was wrong, he said presupposes, I said premise, and that it is a good thing, and I can't think of anyone actually who says it wasn't since maybe Kemal Ataturk... Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 05:52, 21 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
yes, a list may work, but prob only if focused on endangered languages. I'd suggest starting by expanding a section in the endangered languages article about use of digital media for preservation of such languages. There are many cases where lists can survive but not cats. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 06:41, 21 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Anti-Catholic organizations

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: NO CONSENSUS. This is a borderline case. However, I have limited sympathy with arguments to do with using it as an 'attack category', or trying for some sort of 'pro' version (which would surely have POV issues from the get go), because there are perfectly reasonable articles which can, and should, be categorised here, as pointed out by Elaqueate and co. Therefore, weighing the arguments, I do not find that there is a consensus for deletion. -Splash - tk 21:34, 28 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Nominating separately as different issues are involved, but the arguments are basically the same. For example, the Junior Order of United American Mechanics, a fraternal organization, was originally Anti-catholic, but isn't anymore. Classifying it along-side the Ku Klux Klan (which is, as far as I can tell, anti-a great many-things), tars them with a negative brush. There are no doubt anti-catholic organizations, but I'm not convinced we need to categorize by them, any more than we would categorize anti-Islam organizations or anti-semitic organizations. Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:20, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If this was limited to Northern Ireland and a few similar cases you might have a point. However, when we have to deal with this in a global context, there are way too many borderline cases for this to be sustainable.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:59, 24 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Anti-Catholic politicians

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 08:21, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Per recent deletions of Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_May_22#Category:Anti-Jewish_politicians and previous deletions of Category:Anti-Semitic people and broad consensus from 2011 discussion which found consensus for a unified approach to so-called "bias" categories, this one has to be deleted. A given politician may have critiqued catholicism, or islam, or homosexuals or blacks, and said politician may even be in their heart of hearts the worst sort of anti-catholic, but while we can describe them as such in their article based on RS we should not categorize as such as this just leaves open the use of these categories to attack enemies, whether justifiably or not. Per longstanding consensus on these types of categories, delete. Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:18, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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