June 19
Category:Female generals and flag officers
- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: rename (non-admin closure). @Zanhe: Could you also nominate the subcategories by nationality for renaming? Marcocapelle (talk) 06:01, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
- Propose merging Category:Female generals and flag officers to Category:Female generals
- Nominator's rationale: Duplicate category. For consistency with parent Category:Generals, "flag officers" is unnecessary. Zanhe (talk) 22:40, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
- Merge per nom Flag officers are typically naval officers, and do not belong in the general ranks. Dimadick (talk) 05:38, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- Merge. Once the category is merged, Category:Female admirals may be removed from it. --Howard61313 (talk) 06:17, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- Keep. No reason whatsoever to get rid of this category. Not a duplicate category at all. Includes female senior officers of all services. Given they are still a rarity this is a very necessary category. Actually analogous to Category:Military leaders and not Category:Generals. Could probably do with renaming though. Category:Female military leaders? -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:07, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- Renaming to Category:Female military leaders works for me. -Zanhe (talk) 17:54, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- rename to Category:Female military leaders and take out of the generals category, as Category:Military leaders is the analogous omnibus category. Mangoe (talk) 20:14, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- Rename to Category:Female military leaders. That seems the best solution here as otherwise we could go round in circles over the flag officer issue. Izzat Kutebar (talk) 21:38, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- Rename to Category:Female military leaders. Johnbod (talk) 23:27, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Armenian writers
- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was:
Relisted at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 July 11#Category:Armenian writers. ℯxplicit 07:14, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Propose merging Category:Armenian writers to Category:Ethnic Armenian writers
- Nominator's rationale: While I figured most people consider "Armenian" in the first category to refer to nationality/citizenship and "Armenian" in the second category ethnic Armenians of any nationality/citizenship - other views differ. If these sorts of categories are not going to be maintained as they were outlined (and by parent category, organized) then they ought to be merged; if they are, they ought to be purged. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 17:56, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
- Question, what makes you think that they are not maintained as outlined? Marcocapelle (talk) 20:22, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
- An editor posted on my page claiming these two are identical, and has reverted a change reflecting what was my contrary understanding. Also, if you peruse the subcat Category:Armenian male writers for example, you'll see lots of people of the Ottoman Empire who were ethnic Armenians categorized there (depending on the results of this merger proposal, that cat can either be nominated later or purged afterwards). Carlossuarez46 (talk) 21:15, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
- I want to point out a couple of parallel situations. We have Category:American writers of Greek descent, Category:Greek writers (with myriad sub-categories,) and writers like Christos Tsiolkas, who is not listed in any "Greek categories" at all. We have Category:Jewish writers by nationality, Category:Jewish writers, and many others, categories, but we also have Category:Israeli writers. At the very least, I suggest some sort of division of categories to separate writers of Armenian nationality, from writers of Armenian ethnicity.E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:48, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
- "Category:Jewish writers, and many others, categories, but we also have Category:Israeli writers" They are not equivalent. Per Demographics of Israel, 74.5% of Israel's population are Jews, 20.9% are Arabs, and 4.6% are "Others" (members of various minorities). Dimadick (talk) 05:46, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- They would be equivalent if the founders of modern Israel had chosen to call their nation Judaea and thus adopted Jewish as a denonym. That is what is really going on here, and merging these categories into one is pretending something else exists when it does not. Ethnic Armenians in Israel and Lebanon have no connection to the modern nation-state of Armenia.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:10, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- "Category:Jewish writers, and many others, categories, but we also have Category:Israeli writers" They are not equivalent. Per Demographics of Israel, 74.5% of Israel's population are Jews, 20.9% are Arabs, and 4.6% are "Others" (members of various minorities). Dimadick (talk) 05:46, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- Just an idea, how about renaming Category:Ethnic Armenian writers to Category:Armenian writers (ethnicity) and Category:Armenian writers to Category:Armenian writers (nationality)? We should then do that for all categories in both trees. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:30, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- This renaming suggestion should not be regarded as opposition against merging. The suggestion was based on the assumption that there will not be consensus on merging. Given the discussion below I now guess that this assumption was wrong which makes my renaming suggestion obsolete. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:45, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Carlossuarez46 and Marcocapelle: do you think it would be appropriate to take the opportunity and extend the nomination to mother Category:Ethnic Armenian people? Most arguments given apply to the entire category, not just the writers subcategory. Place Clichy (talk) 21:07, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- Imho it is not only appropriate, it is even preferable. Just merging writers without merging people in general would not make sense in this case. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:10, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- Once this is sorted, the rest of the categories can be nominated to be treated in like manner; whenever one starts with too many, the focus becomes which are outliers and nothing is solved for the general proposition. Let's settle that one first. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:08, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
- Imho it is not only appropriate, it is even preferable. Just merging writers without merging people in general would not make sense in this case. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:10, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Carlossuarez46 and Marcocapelle: do you think it would be appropriate to take the opportunity and extend the nomination to mother Category:Ethnic Armenian people? Most arguments given apply to the entire category, not just the writers subcategory. Place Clichy (talk) 21:07, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- This renaming suggestion should not be regarded as opposition against merging. The suggestion was based on the assumption that there will not be consensus on merging. Given the discussion below I now guess that this assumption was wrong which makes my renaming suggestion obsolete. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:45, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- Reverse merge to Category:Armenian writers. This distinction is absurd. Since when is the word Armenian used only in relation to the Armenian state, which has existed only since 1991? Everywhere outside Wikipedia, Armenians are called Armenians, not Ethnic Armenians. It's the Armenian Genocide, not the Ethnic Armenian Genocide, and the Armenian Church has never been called the Ethnic Armenian Church despite centuries of existence outside any Armenian state. It's like saying that Dante Alighieri was not an Italian writer but an Ethnic Italian writer, or that Goethe was not a German writer but an Ethnic German writer, because no state called Italy or Germany existed in their time. The Ethnic Armenian people hierarchy is not an established hierarchy, it is the work of a single editor which somehow survived the concerns of the rest of us. In previous discussions on similarly named categories, such as on WikiProject Categories talk and this user's talk page, arguments in favor of this Ethnic modifier have included : "There were no Grwek people prior to 1821." (talking about Ethnic Greek... categories) or "Ethnic Albanian is a designation for those who are not nationals of Albania." or "People still ignore the fact that without the ethnic cartegories we tag people as Greek by nationality who were part of the Ottoman Empire at a time when Greece was a distinct nation." While most users have argued that this logic is plain wrong, the categories unfortunately still stand. I believe that Nuances of origine, citizenship, ethnicity and nationality will be much better served, with all necessary levels of nuance, with longstanding categories such as People of Armenian descent, Armenian diaspora, Ancient Armenian people, People of the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, Armenians of the Ottoman Empire, Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic people, Lebanese Armenians, Armenian American, etc. I therefore ping users who took part in these discussions: @Johnpacklambert, Cplakidas, Fayenatic london, and Mondiad: Place Clichy (talk) 16:55, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- Support a merge the other way round, if anything. This is ridiculous. Nations with as ancient a history and as large a diaspora as Armenia are not prima facie defined by their modern nation-states. "Armenians" have existed long before the modern Armenian state, or the modern concepts of ethnicity and citizenship. The clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC here (as with similar categories about Greeks, Chinese, etc) is not tied to citizenship of a modern state. If a need exists to distinguish ethnicity from citizenship, this should be done in the article, or by using both relevant categories. A Turkish Armenian journalist can be both an "Armenian journalist" (if he writes in Armenian and/or as a member and representative of the Armenian community) as well as a "Turkish journalist". Constantine ✍ 18:51, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- Reverse merge. I'm definitely not interested in actually engaging with the constant battle over whether or not Category:Armenian people categories should directly include everybody of Armenian ethnicity regardless of their actual nationality or citizenship — why this is a uniquely Armenian issue that doesn't apply the same way to every other situation where a person's ethnic background may not correspond to their nation-state citizenship (e.g. ethnic Germans in Poland or Russia) I'll never know, but the editwarring over it stretches back years — but if there's a merger to be had here it has to go the other way, because the country category is the one that has to exist regardless of where anybody stands on that question, whereas the ethnicity category is redundant if "all ethnic Armenians go directly in the country category" wins the fight. Bearcat (talk) 19:56, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- Reverse merge per the arguments of User:Cplakidas. Dimadick (talk) 20:24, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose There is good reason that Armenians are not treated the same way as Germans. This is because until 1990 Armenians were a lot closer to jews than Germans. In many areas Armenianess was an ethno-religious identification that included people whose families had lived outside of historical Armenia, no matter how defined, for hundreds of years. The attempts to just run roughshod over these facts ignore the reality of the fact that ethnic Armenians are a clear and dinstinct group, while at the same time ignore the clear power of nationality in the modern world. Armenians are a special case because we have ethnic Armenians in Lebanon and Israel whose families have been living as dispersed ethnic minorities for centuries, not to mention the effects of the millet system of the Ottoman Empire.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:06, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- You do realize you're trying that argument against a person whose ethnic background, as far back as I've ever been able to trace, involves ethnic Germans who lived in Congress Poland, Volhynia and Russia, completely outside of even historical "Holy Roman Empire" Germany let alone the contemporary borders of 21st-century Germany? I'm sure if I could get 100 years further back than I can, I'd find ancestors actually living in Germany proper — but as of about 1780 they were already living in an identical situation to the Armenian side of the distinction you thought you were making. Bearcat (talk) 19:22, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
- Comment, a reverse merge would require a de-parenting of the category from Category:Writers by nationality because many of the articles included would no longer be of Armenian nationality, but of Armenian ethnicity but of French, American, Romanian, Ottoman, Soviet, or whatever nationality. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 17:28, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
- The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth
- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: Delete all. Timrollpickering 11:38, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
- Propose deleting Category:Conflicts in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth
Other "... in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth" categories
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- Propose deleting Category:Violence in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth
- Nominator's rationale: This is a weird set of empty categories containing each other, most often anachronistic for a country which disappeared in the 18th century. They often show links to nonexistent main articles, nonexistent portals and nonexistent commons links, such as this category. If someone knows a semi-automatic way to tag these categories, this would be much appreciated. Place Clichy (talk) 16:36, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
- Support as empty. I suppose tagging is not that important in this particular case because only one editor, the creator of these categories, was ever involved in them. Pinging the creator @Aleksandr Grigoryev:. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:19, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
- Comment, the purpose of those categories to provide more accurate picture on historical events that happened on territories that changed substantially their social and cultural environment. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 20:12, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
- Someone removed those categories from articles to which they were related :( I cannot recall exactly now which articles those were. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 20:16, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
- I checked your contributions on the date you created these categories and also a few days extra, and nothing points at any attempt from your side to populate these categories. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:48, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
- The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Medical equipment manufacturers
- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering 11:39, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
- Propose renaming Category:Medical equipment manufacturers to Category:Medical technology companies
- Nominator's rationale: Better description of the articles. Medical technology has moved on. Very few of the articles are about firms which are merely equipment manufacturers. And it might be sensible to merge Category:Health information technology companies into this. Almost all the medical devices and equipment mentioned in the articles are IT enabled. Rathfelder (talk) 10:27, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
- No objection against the rename, but an alternative might be Category:Health technology companies since the related article is at Health technology. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:53, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- There is a difference between health technology and medical technology. These are specifically Medical technology companies. I think we need another category for healthcare management IT, and maybe some others. Its a very crowded field. Rathfelder (talk) 09:20, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- Fair enough. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:04, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.