< June 17 June 19 >

June 18

Category:First-person open world games

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure). Marcocapelle (talk) 05:02, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose deleting Category:First-person open world games
Nominator's rationale: I believe this applies in this case as well: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Overcategorization Dohvahkiin (talk) 23:52, 18 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • All Open world games are already grouped under one category, just called Open world video games. Interqwark created two new categories and started taking games out of the main category and adding them to the two new ones. As he described in Third-person Open world games, GTA would be in both categories, and it’s in the category for FPS and TPS. The difference is, those two are both video game genres. And they have separate Wikipedia articles associated with them, making them very clearly distinct. In this case, there is no First-person and Third-person Open world article, there’s just one article for all open world games. Also, I think that this part of overcategorization applies: “If two or more categories have a large overlap (e.g. because many athletes participate in multiple all-star games, and religious leadership does not radically change from year to year), it is generally better to merge the subjects to a single category, and create lists to detail the multiple instances.” Many Open world games have both first and third person, which would mean that many of the games he wants to remove from the main category and add to the two sub categories would be in both. Dohvahkiin (talk) 07:23, 19 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Brian Smith (administrator)

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: wrong venue for what's being proposed. The content in question is an article, not a category. Bearcat (talk) 16:57, 18 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose renaming Category:Brian Smith (administrator) to Category:Brian Smith (Physical Chemist)
Nominator's rationale: The revised name better reflects Brian Smith's profession 86.183.158.221 (talk) 16:47, 18 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Fictional LGBT characters in radio

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure). Marcocapelle (talk) 05:06, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Single-entry WP:SMALLCAT whose name is not an accurate or defining reflection of its contents. "Fictional X in radio" would refer to characters in radio comedy or drama programs — but the one entry here is a song, not scripted radio fiction. The song is already filed in Category:LGBT-related songs as it is, so categorizing it as "radio" isn't adding any noteworthy or defining context that isn't already covered off by existing categories — the often subjective question of whether a song is about a character per se, or really an expression of the real singer's real feelings instead, is not a category-worthy distinction when it comes to songs, nor are songs defined by radio play or the lack thereof. If somebody had based a notable radio drama series on the song, then this category might be warranted — but we don't categorize songs as radio content per se, or their narrators or subjects as radio characters, or their singers as radio personalities. Bearcat (talk) 16:37, 18 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Crimes related to the European migrant crisis

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering 23:21, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: This recently created category raises a number of concerns. Firstly, though not most importantly, some of these are 'alleged' crimes - plots etc that never went to court. Secondly, any relationship to the 'European migrant crisis' is often tenuous - often being only related in that the perp - or alleged perp - is a refugee or migrant, or the child of one. This leads to my main concern - the category is de facto - crimes committed (or alleged against) - a specific demographic group (migrants - or European born children of migrants). Is this something we do? Do we have 'murders commited by black men' or 'frauds committed by Jews' as categories? Thoughts Pincrete (talk) 15:21, 18 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note that the category contains both attacks on migrants who arrived during the crisis and Attacks by such migrants. And Note that the perpetrators number both Christians (eg. 2015 IKEA stabbing attack) and Jews members of other reliligious and ethnic groups, including many -sub-Saharan Africans, Muslims from several regions, and, I suppose, secularists and atheists.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:30, 18 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)I was about to add that there is at least one article about attacks against migrants. Who mentioned religion? Migrants or their children are still a demographic group regardless of that.Pincrete (talk) 15:34, 18 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I would add that these crimes don't belong in the "European migrant crisis" category either. Deb (talk) 15:38, 18 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really understand what you mean, but a crisis is a defined period of time. There is no persistent crisis over hundreds or thousands of years. And the article clearly defines its subject, everything else should be discussed on the article's talk page. As long as the article is named that way, the related category has to have the same name.--Greywin (talk) 17:49, 18 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
|--------------|  |--------------|  |--------------|
| GODWIN POINT |  | GODWIN POINT |  | GODWIN POINT | 
|--------------|  |--------------|  |--------------|
Untrue; confusing Indian castes for Nazis. Also see: Category:People murdered by Italian-American organized crime; Category:Politicians convicted of crimes by nationality, Category:American mobsters by ethnic or national origin, Category:Hindu religious leaders with criminal convictions.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:57, 19 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I am not interested in discussing out-of-place comparisons with Holocaust and Kristallnacht. I'm just pointing out that you did use these terms and made a comparison. Place Clichy (talk) 16:18, 19 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nom asserts: "my main concern - the category is de facto - crimes committed (or alleged against) - a specific demographic group (migrants - or European born children of migrants). Is this something we do? Do we have 'murders commited by black men' or 'frauds committed by Jews' as categories?" I responded by listing several longstanding categories where perps, or victims, or, as on Kristallnacht and many Nazi-related cases you chose to ignore - both perps and victims are members of "a specific demographic group."E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:19, 19 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And no one would try to deny that THE defining feature of events such as Kristallnacht was the group attacked or - in other instances - the attackers. I would not question the legitimacy of Category:Antisemitic murders in 21st century France - since either the authorities or other facts characterise 'antisemetism' as a defining feature. Pincrete (talk) 17:58, 22 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Concur with rename Category:Crimes related to the European migrant crisis (2015–) . I have had similar thought about the need to rename European migrant crisis to European migrant crisis (2015–).E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:59, 18 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see the 'cut off' date as the problem - the main problem is "what are the defining characteristics" that link any incident to the crisis - other than being wholly or partly perpetrated by migrants? The most notorious event listed November 2015 Paris attacks was perpetrated by French and other European citizens, with some peripheral figures possibly 'slipping in' among refugees. How is the migrant crisis a 'defining feature' of that crime? And which RS has said it is?Pincrete (talk) 18:53, 18 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A small number of the Paris attackers had probably 'slipped in' according to the French PM - the majority were European, although the incident did draw attention to the migrant issue. Fundamentally you are saying that any crime (or alleged crime, or plot), wholly or partially involving a recent migrant or migrants is inherently connected to the migrant crisis. In one sense this is self-evidently true (if the person had not migrated, the event would not have happened, or not where it did). I am genuinely in two minds about this - one sees the value of this category as I am not so foolish as to think that there is no connection at all between migration and crime, self-evidently there is, if only for the reason I gave, that the person would not have been in Europe if not for migration - the other mind wonders why I can't find any "rapes/murders/frauds/stabbings involving (insert name of ethnic or social group)" categories. The example categories you give all relate to historical events, where the dust has settled, the books been written and it would be pointless to pretend that targetted acts were not committed by group X against group Y. The ethnicity or social group of the perps and/or victims is clearly a defining feature in your examples. Pincrete (talk) 21:56, 18 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well that is a pretty appalling discussion, but do note that it took place early in 2016. Are discussions about Categories different than discussions of articles? i.e., is it illegitimate to bring a deleted category back when years have passed and the number of well-supported articles in the category has grown. Not to mention the magnitude of the current political discussion of crimes related to the European migrant crisis.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:49, 19 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Whether any particular crime belongs in the category can be discussed on the article's talk page, but there was SIGCOV of the fact that the perpetrators of the 2015 Paris attack included both new migrants and EU citizens who had returned from Syria by posing as migrants.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:29, 19 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Posing as migrants. The connection with any migrant crisis is really far-fetched. Place Clichy (talk) 16:18, 19 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No it isn't, it is a notable fact and clearly links the article to this category, when the crisis is used by perps to get into the EU (it was denied that this was possible before e.g. by German secret services).--Greywin (talk) 17:51, 19 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think that articles were added on the base of hard facts, when perps clearly came in in the course of the crisis. Maybe you show me a "subjective" case?--Greywin (talk) 18:39, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Think again. A sample taken from the category: Killing of Susanna Feldmann mentions a murder committed by someone having the status of asylum seaker. Nowhere in the article does the word "crisis" appear, or is a relation with the "migrant crisis" even alledged. To see any connection between this individual crime and the "crisis" would be like considering that there were no asylum seekers before. In my opinion, Category:European migrant crisis and Category:Crimes related to the European migrant crisis are both out of place and can be removed from this article. Most articles seem to have been put there with a relation of a similar level, indeed very subjective, if one can even avoid the term "trolling". And off course, there is the most-discussed case of the November 2015 Paris attacks where the only migration involved is between France and Belgium. Place Clichy (talk) 16:22, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In the case of the Killing of Susanna Feldmann the suspect clearly arrived during the migrant crisis. There is no need for the term crisis to mentioned, the relationship is made clear by the period of time of the crisis, and even by a link and reference in the article. If he had arrived before, there was no connection. But he did arrive during the crisis, so there is a factual connection. And just repeating a wrong statement about the November 2015 Paris attacks often enough doesn't make it right.--Greywin (talk) 12:51, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Interesting. I had thought that a single category was appropriate. But, certainly, it would be just as easy to have 2 categories: Category:Crimes committed against migrants arriving in the migrant crisis (2015–), and Category:Crimes committed by migrants who arrived in the migrant crisis (2015–).E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:37, 19 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"Connected" has exactly the same problem as "related", meaning as it does essentially the same thing. Mangoe (talk) 20:32, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
er..., yes. if the victims and or perpetrators of these crimes had not arrived in Europe, these crimes would not have happened.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:41, 22 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
So can you find reliable sources that make that claim about the events listed in this subcategory? It sounds like you're conflating "the migrant crisis" with "all migration" - people migrated to Europe long before the crisis occurred. I think this would be a little like creating a subcategory called "tropical storms related to global warming" in which we include all tropical storms that occurred after the industrial revolution. Or creating a category called "events related to the birth of OJ Simpson" which would include Kato Kaelin's film career, USC's Rose Bowl Win in 1967, and the name recognition of the Hertz rental company. Nblund talk 15:29, 22 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Incorrect. None of the articles now in the category are about migrants who arrived before 2015.E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:08, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A plot is not a crime - it is at best an allegation of intention to commit a crime. Unless it goes to court, no crime has verifiably occurred. An unsolved murder IS a crime. But that is not the main argument. The main argument is that in almost none of these cases is the migrant crisis - or its relationship to the crime - explored AT ALL. Therefore it is not in any sense a defining feature of the crime - except in the most limited sense that one or more of those involved were - or had been in the past - migrants. I imagine if I go to the 'Caste related violence' category, I would (or should) find that caste was a defining feature of these events (not simply acts of violence (probably?) committed by untouchables). Nobody has yet come up with a category realistically comparable to this one which has all the inherent subjectivity and invitation to PoV-ishness that Category:Frauds related to people who attend synagogues would have. There is a very thinly veiled agenda behind this category. Pincrete (talk) 19:45, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As thinly veiled as the agenda of those who want to delete it? Everything's perfect, no crimes at all - brave new world? The migrant crisis is an important piece of the puzzle in many cases. In the case of the Murder of Maria Ladenburger for example, the perp would probably have stayed in Greece, when the crisis didn't occur, he was known to the police there and it was much harder for him to escape them. So it was a decisive chance for him to come to Germany and commit another crime without being checked at all. Thus this is a defining feature of this and many other crimes. --Greywin (talk) 12:40, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Germany has just announced that its crime figures for 2017 were the lowest for 25 years! - If I tried to deduce from this statistic that recent migrants had improved and lowered crime figures - everyone would quite rightly think me bonkers - you cannot extrapolate a relationship based on a single year's figures with innumerable other variables. Yet from a handful of largely unconnected incidents across Europe - an argument is here being made that a relationship exists between crime and migration. There probably are relationships - it would be foolish to pretend that the movement of large numbers of people had no effects - and there is possibly a good article to be written somewhere on that subject - based on good research and answering all kinds of questions, whether there were increases in particular kinds of crime, whether crimes against migrants outnumbered crimes done by etc. This category isn't even attempting that. It simply presumes a relationship without ever supplying sourced, balanced info or a master article exploring what that relationship could be. Pincrete (talk) 21:24, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The German crime rate sank mainly because there was success of the police special commissions against a wave of burglaries and at the same time the main wave of the migrant crisis was over, so there were significantly less crimes against immigration laws. But other figures were rising (murder, sexual crimes) and on all-time highs, as bodily injuries. In addition, a study in Lower Saxony proved, that the recent migrant crisis had a significant impact on those figures. [1][2] --Greywin (talk) 18:09, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You're missing the point. The category isn't named "Crimes committed by migrants". So it's meaningless how migrants contribute to the number of crimes, for this category. When perps of a terror attack use the crisis to get into the country (as happened ahead of the Paris attacks), there is a clear and undeniable relationship to the crisis, because it was successfully used by them. And leaving the crimes out - wouldn't be the so-called "crisis" a perfect example of a wonderful thing, where no criticism is allowed (as some might want to suggest)? Mentioning also negative consequences of events is an important feature of Wikipedia! So I think this category - or leaving the crimes in the "European migrant crisis" category - is very useful to contribute to the full picture of relations. --Greywin (talk) 12:40, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It is you who is missing the point. By now, we are all familiar with your personal prejudices and we have heard enough of them. Unless you have something new to say, I suggest you avoid repeating yourself. Deb (talk) 11:18, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
:) --Greywin (talk) 18:09, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The 1st article you refer to is well categorized by Category:Stabbing attacks in 2017, Category:2017 crimes in Germany etc. The 2nd is a redlink. DexDor (talk) 05:44, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oops. Proper link is 2015 German refugee attack plot. Note that the fact that WP:OTHERSTUFF, i.e. other categories exist is not a reason to eliminate this useful category. Moreover, assertions made above that the articles in this category, "are not exactly 'related to the crisis'" are spurious. The category is filled with articles such as the 2017 Medborgarplatsen stabbing, Arson attacks on asylum centres in Sweden, Killing of Susanna Feldmann, and the 2016 Chemnitz terrorism plot in which the refugee crisis is central to the crime. And do note that, contrary to assertions made by editors arguing for deletion, plotting to blow a refugee center, or an airport, is indeed a crime for which the plotters can be arrested, indicted, tried and sentenced. E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:00, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Re: "in which the refugee crisis is central to the crime", except that many of the articles do not even mention the refugee crisis anywhere. The German attack plot article which you link to says that "The neo-Nazi group, which consisted of 11 men and two women, had been monitored by police for over a year" ie they were plotting this attack a year before the refugee crisis even started - so it fails even the SYNTH test which is applied elsewhere that any crime involving refugees/asylum seekers/migrants that occurred post-2015, is inherently related to the migrant crisis. In other articles there is mention of the crisis in the article - though not in the source used AFAI can see, I don't speak Swedish, but I am not able to find any reference to the crisis in the sources used for 2017 Medborgarplatsen stabbing, the sources supports a 2014 arrival ('three years previous to the crime' - again before the beginning of the crisis). If the text "during the European migrant crisis", were being used simply to establish context, I wouldn't mind, but it isn't, it is being used to link a crime and a category to the migrant crisis which even the sources do not endorse. Regarding the most notorious event in this category, the Paris attacks. A French official says that some of the peripheral figures in this attack may have taken advantage of the crisis to slip in under the radar. We don't do demographic profiling of crimes unless the group attacking, or attacked, is clearly a defining feature of the crime - however, if we did, the principal defining feature demographically of the Paris attackers was that they were native European citizens!
Finally, I DONT LIKE IT is sometimes a valid argument, WP:IAR and all that. The failure to objectively identify in what sense any of these events are linked to the crisis (beyond the presence or arrival of one or more of the migrants in Europe post-2015) is itself a sufficient reason for deletion, but even if it were not, there are reasons why we don't have Category:Racist murders which would not have happened if the victim had just stayed with his own kind or Category:Rapes that would not have happened if the girl had not gone to the party against her mother's advice. This category seems to me to be based on WP:OR and SYNTH - and exists as a magnet for PoV pushing. Pincrete (talk) 10:11, 18 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note Request for Admin close posted by me as there seem to be no 'new voices'. Pincrete (talk) 12:30, 18 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Massachusetts Registered Historic Place stubs

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete and upmerge templates. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:10, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose deleting Category:Berkshire County, Massachusetts Registered Historic Place stubs (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
  • Propose deleting Category:Hampden County, Massachusetts Registered Historic Place stubs (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
  • Propose deleting Category:Hampshire County, Massachusetts Registered Historic Place stubs (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale: A group of dedicated editors have raised all previously tagged articles to at least start level. Categories empty. Propose deleting categories. Keep templates, but upmerge to Category:Massachusetts Registered Historic Place stubs. Dawynn (talk) 12:59, 18 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category: Marine fauna of Australia

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: keep without objection to creating the proposed target and populating it manually. (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 05:14, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: The category exclusively contains fish ; a parent category "Marine fauna of Australia" can later be added, once other daughter categories are created (e.g. "*marine ?* Crustaceans of Australia" etc.). --Couiros22 (talk) 12:47, 18 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Wouldn't it just be easier to rename all, then move the one or two non-fish entries back to a new "Marine fauna of Australia" cat. ? --Couiros22 (talk) 15:58, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That may be the best way of implementing the change. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:10, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No. Renaming, waiting for the bot to recategorize the articles, fixing those that are then mis-categorized, turning the redirects back into categories and then updating the category structure is more complex than doing it properly (create the new categories and move articles manually so that at each step the category structure is still correct). DexDor (talk) 19:06, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
... It may be slightly more complex, but it would be much faster and less tedious than moving the hundreds of articles manually (!) --Couiros22 (talk) 19:56, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hundreds? Only 18 pages are (currently) immediately below this category. DexDor (talk) 19:28, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
18 ? including the sub-categories there would indeed be hundreds --Couiros22 (talk) 13:54, 22 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This CFD is about renaming one category. DexDor (talk) 19:18, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Ludvík Svoboda

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure). Marcocapelle (talk) 05:16, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: This category does not seem to pass WP:OCEPON criteria. The category of this general and President of Czechoslovakia currently contains articles relative to military units, battles, "elections" where he was an actor, and a film about a battle he fought (not about him). None of these are specific to him. Place Clichy (talk) 09:41, 18 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Train operating companies

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename to Category:Train operating companies in the United Kingdom. Timrollpickering 11:36, 8 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose renaming Category:Train operating companies to Category:Train operating companies in Great Britain
Nominator's rationale: Make the scope clearer. All entries are in the UK. Rathfelder (talk) 08:54, 18 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Third-person open world games

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure). Marcocapelle (talk) 05:21, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose deleting Category:Third-person open world games
Nominator's rationale: This category just seems to be pointless. We’ve already got a Category for all Open world games, so why make a specific one just for the third person games. Plus, what about the games that can be played in both first and third person? Dohvahkiin (talk) 11:55, 18 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
More