The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by FrB.TG via FACBot (talk) 17 January 2024 [1].


American Bank Note Company Printing Plant[edit]

Nominator(s): RoySmith (talk) 03:36, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In a sense, this is a companion piece to my previous FA, Fleetwood Park Racetrack. We've moved (1.5 miles (2.4 km)) away and it's 10 years later, but it's a different world. Fleetwood Park was the end of the Bronx as a rural area on the outskirts of the city, where the rich and powerful had their estates and playgrounds. Now we're into the rise of the Bronx as a densely populated area and a center of industry. Both sites are adjacent to railways, but instead of bringing in crowds of people seeking entertainment, it's bringing in industrial supplies and shipping out finished products. While the racetrack fell victim to the economic pressure to build houses driving it out of existence, here we see the printing plant and the surrounding residential development having a symbiotic relationship, with the newly built housing providing a place to live for the workers in the plant and the plant providing additional incentive for developers to build new houses. Another contrast is that while physical evidence of the race track is all gone today, the printing plant, while no longer used for its original purpose, remains as a highly visible reminder of the history behind it. RoySmith (talk) 03:36, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

PS, the PR referred to above is at Wikipedia:Peer review/American Bank Note Company Printing Plant/archive2 RoySmith (talk) 01:30, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@FAC coordinators: This has four supports and has passed the image and source reviews. Is there anything else that needs to happen? RoySmith (talk) 14:21, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Epicgenius[edit]

I did notice something about the article's structure. More specifically, the article is laid out roughly chronologically, with bits and pieces of architectural detail, operational detail, etc. interspersed throughout. It might be too much of a hassle to separate these into "History", "Operations", "Architecture", etc. sections, though—especially considering that the current section structure isn't actually bad—so I'll leave that be.

General:

Lead:

Heh, it turns out, in a single report, the LPC says 1984 and 1986 in different places. Upon re-reading it, I pretty sure the 1986 one is wrong. I've reworded this to equivocate a bit.

OK, I think I've dealt with all of the above RoySmith (talk) 01:07, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

More later. – Epicgenius (talk) 21:29, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So sorry for forgetting about this.
Previous land use:
  • Para 2: "Central Realty, Bond & Trust Co" - I'd spell this out as "Central Realty, Bond & Trust Company"
  • Para 2: "In 1910, the size of the Barretto Street block was increased as a result of a land swap between American Bank Note and the City, moving Barretto Street slightly north of its original location." - I would say "the city government" instead of just "the City". (Not really an issue, but the source seems to say that the company gained land to the northeast but had to give up some land to make way for Barretto Street.)
Land acquisition and construction:
  • Para 1: "in a building which would later become the United States Customs House and eventually National City Bank." - So 55 Wall Street, then. (The 55 Wall article actually mentions American Bank Note already. I'm not going to say "ironically" because I actually improved that article, but yeah, it would be good to just link to 55 Wall somewhere.) Also, it's the United States Custom (no plural) House.
    • New comment: "known at the time as 48 Wall Street and later renumbered as 55 Wall Street" - This doesn't seem right to me. It's more likely that American Bank Note was at 48 Wall (which is across the street from 55 Wall and is now the site of this building), then moved to 55 Wall. It is the latter building that became the U.S. Custom House and then National City Bank. Epicgenius (talk) 16:53, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 2: " In parallel with this effort, the company was also looking for a separate location into which they could move their production facilities" - I think "also" and "in parallel" are redundant to each other, so you can just drop "also".
  • Para 2: "it was felt" - by whom?
  • I'm going to leave this one alone; the sentence already has a subject (the company), so it's clear who was doing the feeling.
  • I completely missed that. The passive tense nonetheless seems a bit awkward, though; how about "they felt"? Epicgenius (talk) 16:50, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 2: "One factor in the site selection was proximity to the New York, New Haven and Hartford Railroad" - The text "New York, New Haven and Hartford Railroad" links to the company itself, so you could probably reword this as "One factor in the site selection was proximity to a New York, New Haven and Hartford Railroad line" or "proximity to the New York, New Haven and Hartford Railroad's Hell Gate Line".
  • Para 3: "in the next two or three years" - From 1908, or from when the plant was completed?
  • Para 4: "The firm was already at work preparing preliminary plans" - I'd remove "at work" since the sentence retains its meaning without it.
  • Para 5: "In what turned out to be an understatement," - (1) This needs a source from after 1909. (2) This could perhaps be reworded more encyclopedically, e.g. "The Times said that the design represented by the model might still "be subjected to some minor changes", although this was an understatement." Or, you could remove this altogether, as it looks like the sixth paragraph describes the extent of the changes.
  • Para 6: "The design change is also believed" - By the LPC?
I still need to think about the best way to handle the "understatement" bit, but I've addressed all the other items. RoySmith (talk) 17:12, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the quick response. I'll look at other parts of the article tomorrow or Monday. I mentioned the address numbers 48 and 55 Wall Street above, but I'm unsure about the address renumbering, as this is not something that ever came up in any of the sources about 55 Wall Street that I consulted. The source does say "All three companies were in lower Manhattan - American in the Custom House at 48 Wall Street (which is 55 Wall Street under the revised numbering system)". If I can find a source saying that odd- and even-numbered addresses on the street were indeed swapped, then this is a non-issue. – Epicgenius (talk) 20:03, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've gone back to what was essentially my original wording. This is interesting from the point of view of a history of the company, but only peripheral to the Bronx printing plant, so no reason to live on the edge of WP:V. FWIW, there's an illustration on page 41 of that source which says it was the Merchants' Exchange building and looks like the photo at 55 Wall Street in the original 4-story configuration, but it's just not essential for this article. RoySmith (talk) 21:52, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's fair. The source does explicitly call out the building as being 55 Wall Street/the Merchants' Exchange Building (they're the same thing, and the 55 Wall article already says as much, with sources). But even if that weren't the case, what I meant was something like this—namely, I was just asking if you can link the 55 Wall article without needing to explain it in prose. In other words, this was more a minor nitpick than anything else. Epicgenius (talk) 22:50, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
https://tribecacitizen.com/2017/10/10/nosy-neighbor-why-are-tribecas-street-numbers-messed-up/ RoySmith (talk) 23:22, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also Henry B. Hoffmann. "Changed House Numbers and Lost Street Names in New York of the Early Nineteenth Century and Later" (PDF). anthonywrobins.com. Retrieved 23 December 2023., page 71. RoySmith (talk) 23:29, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
More in a bit. – Epicgenius (talk) 01:00, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the delayed response. I promise to get to this over the weekend. – Epicgenius (talk) 23:29, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Initial configuration:
  • Para 1: "In 1913, Harry Cook described the plant as "mammoth" " - Might benefit from some context on who Harry Cook is (e.g. "In 1913, guidebook writer Harry Cook...")
I think this got shuffled around a bit since your first read. The place you quote is now the second mention of Harry Cook. He's introduced the first time he's mentioned, under "Land acquisition and construction"
  • Para 1: "Architecture & Building Magazine had referred to its "arsenal-like appearance with a pervading sense of strength and security."" - The period should be outside the quotation mark since the quoted text isn't a full sentence, per MOS:QUOTEPUNCT.
  • By the way, it is strange that the Architecture & Building article doesn't seem to be digitized, because that would have been a good source to use directly.
  • Para 2: "The electrical requirements were exceptional for the day" - Any idea how much electricity the plant required, though? Like thousands of megawatts?
1.21 jigawatts?
  • Para 3: "This runs the full length of the Lafayette Avenue frontage," - The offices and workrooms run the full length?
  • Para 3: "Lafayette avenue" should be capitalized as a proper name.
  • Para 3: "Although the building used modern incandescent and arc lighting" - There should be a comma after this.
  • Para 3: "The steel framework allowed three times the window area as would have been possible in an all-brick structure" - You mean a structure with brick bearing walls, presumably.
Probably. The source says "traditional brick structure". The way I have it and the way you suggest seem like equally reasonable interpretations of that.
  • Para 4: "The lower floors of this building included a vault for storing over 130,000 printing plates" - A single two-story vault, or separate vaults on each story?
Subsequent additions:
  • Para 1: "In 1925, a fourth story, only two bays deep, was added to the top of the Lafayette building, using materials that closely matched the style of the original" - At this point I'm nitpicking, but do the sources say why this fourth story was built? I ask because reasons are given for all the other additions mentioned in this paragraph (e.g. the garage was expanded for ink production, the Barretto Street wing was for a laundry and pulp mill, etc.)
The source does not say.
  • Para 2: "built a number of other buildings" - I'd just say "built several other buildings" (or, to be less repetitive, "developed other buildings").
Operations:
  • Para 1: "In 1919, the plant employed 2,000 workers" - Are there any other data on how many workers were employed at the plant (e.g. are there sources about employment in either the 1920s, '30s, '40s, or '50s)?
Not that I've been able to find.
  • Para 1: "railroads, steamship lines and others" - And other transport lines?
The source just says "railroads, steamship lines, and other clients"
  • Para 2: "The company employed, according to Meyer Berger," - I would briefly introduce Berger, i.e. "The company employed, according to journalist Meyer Berger".
  • Para 2: "The house style favored" - The house style of the engravings?
  • Para 3: "to whom it offered an advanced employee welfare program" - What did this program entail, for example?
The source does not say
  • Para 5: "from 1908–1914" - I think this should be either "from 1908 to 1914", "in 1908–1914", or even "for six years starting in 1908" (the 1914 end date is already mentioned at the end of the paragraph).
Bombing:
  • Was anyone killed or injured in the bombing? (I assume not, because the FALN bombings largely resulted only in property damage, but it doesn't hurt to check)
  • Para 2: "This was the fifty-first attack attributed to the group in the previous three years." - The previous paragraph says the FBI office was bombed the same day. The source says there were 51 total bombings attributed to the FALN; the FBI attack happened five minutes after the American Bank Note attack, so technically the American Bank Note attack was not strictly the 51st FALN bombing.
More in a bit. This is a long article but I should be done really soon. – Epicgenius (talk) 15:39, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I've take care of all those. RoySmith (talk) 16:52, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Post-Bank Note:
  • In general, I was wondering whether this should really be divided into two or three subsections, since this section is pretty long and has one comparatively short subheader for landmark status.
It's unclear what a logical division would be. This was previously in two sections, one which talked about owners and another which talked about tenants. That proved to be problematical (see Eddie's review) so I ended up merging this into a single section which takes a chronological approach.
I personally would have divided this into "1980s and 1990s" and "2000s to present" sections, though I can see why this may not work, especially if occupants like the John V. Lindsay Wildcat Academy Charter School were present in the building during both eras. Epicgenius (talk) 21:31, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 1: "The center occupied 146,000 square feet (13,600 m2) (about 1/3 of the site), housing several tenant companies in the clothing and fabric industry." - Do you know if this still exists, or if not, what happened to this? I would also use Template:Frac for "1/3".
I'm reasonably sure it no longer exists, but can't find any sources that say so explicitly. Tenants moving in tend to be covered well. Moving out, not so much (unless there's some controversy about it). I made it "one third" to match the style I used elsewhere, i.e. "one half", etc
  • Para 2: "The space was renovated" - Was this in 1997 or later?
2005, added.
  • Para 3: "The Bronx Academy of Arts and Dance had their first home in the complex in 1998[41]" - the comma should go before the ref, per WP:REFPUNCT.
Fixed.
  • Para 3: "In 2013, the Academy left the building after fifteen years of tenancy" - I think "after fifteen years of tenancy" is unnecessary as it's already mentioned that the academy moved into the building in 1998. Also, since Taconic bought the building in 2008, would it be better to mention that first before mentioning that the academy's lease wasn't renewed?
I tried to keep everything about a given tenant or owner in a single paragraph, in response to a comment from Eddie. That means the paragraphs overlap in time sequence. I think this makes logical sense, even if it means the events aren't all in strictly chronological sequence.
Sounds good to me. I trust Eddie's reasoning on this; although personally I would have arranged the info more or less chronologically, grouping the info by owner/tenant makes sense. Epicgenius (talk) 21:31, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 5: The New York Times should be italicized.
  • Para 5: "At the time, comparable rents" - You mean "rents for comparable space"?
Well, yes, that's what it means, but "comparable rents" is the phrase used in the source and I believe is the standard phrase used in the industry (if not just "comparables"). But chasing this down led me to the 1985 rent being $3.50, so I added that.
  • Para 6: "Sunshine ceased operations in 2017" - It might be better to use a secondary source for this claim, if one exists. In addition, the website says that Sunshine was founded in 2001 and closed "after 15 adventurous years", which indicates that it must've ceased operation in 2016.
  • Para 7: "combining four existing offices" - Personally I'd say "combining existing offices at four locations"; otherwise it sounds like you're combining four existing adjacent offices.
Landmark status:
  • Para 2: "The Real Deal describes the building as "one of the most architecturally distinctive office properties in the Bronx" - Was this description made when the building became a NYC landmark?
No; I've moved that sentence elsewhere.
Transportation:
  • Para 1: "When the plant was originally built" - I think you can remove "originally" here.
That's it from me. – Epicgenius (talk) 19:16, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done with all those. RoySmith (talk) 20:28, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I understand that there are a few details that can't be added due to a lack of sourcing (which is something that's out of our control). Overall, though, the article is really good. Epicgenius (talk) 21:31, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

HF - support[edit]

I'll take a look. Hog Farm Talk 03:40, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ready for the subsequent additions section; will resume tomorrow. Hog Farm Talk 04:43, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's it for my first read-through. Hog Farm Talk 23:54, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Other than being unclear on what to do about the LPC report item, fixed all of the above. RoySmith (talk) 01:28, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Eddie[edit]

Wow, don't know how I mised that. Fixed.
Moved
I reworked the paragraph to place the expectation on the NYTimes. The source article doesn't attribute the expectation to anybody in particular, so I'm treating it as if it were the NYT's editorial opinion.
Made it "plant"
That would require listing a lot of sources. I changed it to "variously refer to", which I hope conveys a more accurate feeling than "differ"
I didn't mean as much the phrasing, but add a couple citations to back this up. Eddie891 Talk Work 18:16, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's fine the way it is; later in the paragraph I talk about the number of floors, so if there's any confusion, it doesn't last long.
I'm not following. It's mentioned in several places that it was completed in 1911.
I was wondering if you knew more specifically when it was completed, or had any idea when construction actually began. Eddie891 Talk Work 18:16, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Added a attribution.
This paragraph is about the anti-counterfitting efforts, and Will Ford is mentioned in the preceeding paragraph. It seems logical to me.
I kind of like the way it reads now, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.
Dropped that sentence.
Added "anti-war", which is all I could find, and another citation.
Originally, the first part was about the controversy around the new owners forcing out existing low-rent tennants and the second part was about the organization. I've coalesced those into a single location.
There's an entrance on Lafayette Ave, and another by the loading dock on the Tiffany St side. I've made some edits to clarify this, and to avoid calling either one the "main entrance".

That's a first pass. Interesting article. Not wedded to any of these points. I made some smaller changes, feel free to revert any. Eddie891 Talk Work 17:35, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I think I've addressed all of the above. Awaiting the next salvo. RoySmith (talk) 03:43, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I guess abandoned vs heavily modified is a subjective thing. I've broken out a separate "Design evolution" sub-section and shuffled things around a bit to (hopefully) make this more clear, with the first paragraph talking exclusively about the original design, and the second paragraph introducing the second design and why it came to be. I hope that works.
I think that helps things
Hmm. The source(s) call it a garage, but I suspect that's meant in the more general sense of "a small building out back" and was probably never used to store vehicles. In much the same way that my garage at home is filled with bicycles, lawn mowers, and other random crap and has never had a car parked in it :-)
The other was the eviction of the Bronx Academy of Arts and Dance. I had originally covered part of that here and part in a later section; these got combined at the urging of another reviewer. I'm open to suggestions as to how this could be presented better.
Hm. On second thought, was the anti-war graffiti also a protest over/caused by rising prices/values? Eddie891 Talk Work 19:58, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't be surprised if there was a tie-in, but I can't find any sources which say that. RoySmith (talk) 20:31, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right, so we've really only got one of a "number of controversies". What do the sources say on the matter? Eddie891 Talk Work 22:51, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that what I've got now is sub-optimal. I'll spend some time thinking about the best way to fix up this section and doing some more research; give me a few days on that. RoySmith (talk) 23:21, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, no rush. Besides this there's just the two points above (look for my signature in the first round) of comments. Eddie891 Talk Work 23:37, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Eddie891 OK, I've reshuffled the way the Post-Bank Note section is organized. Instead of one part talking about the changing building ownerships and another part talking about the tenants, I've merged those two into a single chronological presentation covering both aspects. Along the way, I got rid of the "number of controversies" statement and just talked about the individual controversies in-line. It's kind of a long section, but I think it works and I don't see any good way to break it up into smaller sections.
What were the other two points that are still pending? RoySmith (talk) 17:06, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • suggest standardizing between 'Sunshine Business Incubator' and 'Sunshine Bronx Business Incubator'
  • Done
  • " Sources variously refer to the main portion of the site is a single building with three wings (Lafayette, Garrison, and Barretto), or three distinct but interconnected buildings. In this article, the terms wing and building are used interchangeably." Is it possible to add citations to the end of this note?
  • Perhaps somebody with better template-fu than I posses can figure out how to get one footnote to include a reference to another, but I have been unable to make that work. I have, however, added an example of the LPC using "building" and "wing" in the same sentence, which I think should assure our readers that it's a thing. RoySmith (talk) 21:49, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Eddie891 Talk Work 20:48, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your work to date. Probably everything for me. Eddie891 Talk Work 18:34, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done with all this. RoySmith (talk) 19:53, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support, thanks for your work on this. Eddie891 Talk Work 23:47, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review[edit]

Review of this version to come. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:37, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RoySmith: Source review completed. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:56, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Voorts: I still need to figure out how to deal with the Ebsco URL, but other than that all of these are resolved. RoySmith (talk) 01:30, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK, got that sorted. RoySmith (talk) 01:50, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The archive url still is for Ebsco directly instead of the TWL proxy. Also, I replied above to your question. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:53, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is another case of IABot generating a bogus archive URL. I'll do some research to see if I can figure out how to make IABot do the right thing, but in the meantime, I don't have a good answer.
@Voorts: With David Eppstein's help, I was able to beat IABot into submission. See WT:Citing sources#How to cite an archived EBSCO source? if you're interested in the details. I believe that was the last item on your list. RoySmith (talk) 14:34, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some more notes:

We're almost to the finish line here (this version):

I think that's everything for now but I'll do one final look once those are fixed. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:25, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Voorts other than as noted above, all done with these. RoySmith (talk) 19:19, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
RoySmith, last note: Ref 10, WL ABCorp. Per Template:Inflation/fn#Reference_grouping, you can change the inflation/fn to be in the ref list instead of as a note. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:35, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done. RoySmith (talk) 19:36, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@RoySmith: one more note per above. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:37, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to push back on this one too. The data to support how the inflation calculations are done is a low-level detail, not essential to the reader's understanding of the article's subject. I don't think there's any reason to clutter up the references with this stuff. WP:FACR requires consistently formatted inline citations using footnotes. I believe what I have now satisfies that. RoySmith (talk) 19:48, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. This version of the article passes my source review. Thank you for your work documenting the history of the Bronx! voorts (talk/contributions) 20:18, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review: Pass[edit]

All images, as far as I can see, have alt text and evident encyclopaedic value. Licensing checks:

To my eyes, the only quibbles are formalities; it seems almost certain that the images are all PD. UndercoverClassicist T·C 14:08, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@UndercoverClassicist is there anything else I need to be doing here? RoySmith (talk) 23:14, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Either way, the copyright tag on the Dutch Gilder is wrong: is there anything stopping you from changing it over? I don't think we need to worry about the possibility of copyright notification and renewal unless there's some cause to think there's a reasonable chance that those things did happen. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:30, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done. RoySmith (talk) 12:47, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SC[edit]

Putting down a marker for now - will be back with a week - SchroCat (talk) 15:48, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

IB
Previous land use
Land acquisition
Design evolution

Done to the end of Design evolution. Reading nicely so far; more to come. – SchroCat (talk) 13:23, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed all those. RoySmith (talk) 15:48, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done down to the end of Subsequent additions with no problems - SchroCat (talk) 17:58, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Post-Bank

That's my lot – an interesting article. – SchroCat (talk) 20:37, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.