This article is about American transportation in the Siegfried Line campaign. It is the second half of of what was once one article on the logistical support of the American armies between September and December 1944, but the article was split. Hawkeye7(discuss) 06:35, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I remember reviewing this last time it came here. Happy to see it back, and I'm hoping we reach a consensus to promote. Comments will come shortly; this is a long article, so I will go section by section. I do have an active FAC as well if you wish to return the favor. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 21:25, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Lead
"Ardennes Offensive" should be capitalized, yes?
Uggh. Don't get me started. Per MOS:MILTERMS, Words such as campaign, offensive, siege, action, pocket, etc., are typically not frequently capitalized in sources, so are lowercase in Wikipedia.Hawkeye7(discuss) 02:09, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I only brought this up because Battle of the Bulge has "Offensive" capitalized. If MOS says it should be lowercase, then it's fine as is in this article. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 03:39, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The subsequent advance to the German border stretched the American logistical system to breaking point Suggest "to its breaking point".
Additional port capacity was obtained through the development of the ports of Rouen and Le Havre in September and October, I assume this is meant to mean the first was in September and the second in October? If so, suggest "September and October, respectively".
This is nitpicking (and the article is very well written, so most of my comments will be nitpicking), but in the first sentence, do those emdashes eliminate the need for a DATECOMMA?
The military date format eliminates it. Parenthetical commas are only required with the mdy date format. Hawkeye7(discuss) 03:08, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This stretched the logistical system to breaking point. Same comment as I made regarding the lead section.
Between 25 August and 12 September, the Allied armies advanced from the D plus 90 phase line, the position the Operation Overlord plan expected to be reached 90 days after D-Day, to the D plus 350 one I didn't understand this on first reading, due to "D plus 350 one". Wasn't sure if this meant D plus 351, or was a typo. Suggest instead saying "D plus 350 line" or something similar to eliminate confusion.
there was a shortage of suitable vehicles can you name any examples here (I found 6-ton 6×6 truck in a navbox, for instance) of suitable long-haul vehicles that were in short supply? You name the deuce and a half truck later, which is helpful, and I think examples of what wasn't available would be similarly helpful.
If six to eight weeks could be gained, then bad weather would set in, further restricting the Allies' mobility, air operations and logistical support. This is referring to the onset of winter, right? Suggest making that more explicit.
They were operated by the 16th Major Port, which was relieved by the 5th Major Port in September. This is referring to military units? It wasn't clear to me at first. I see there's a bit of explanation later in this section (such as IDing the commanding officer); it might be prudent to move that to the first mention so the reader understands the 16th Major Port is referring to a military logistics unit.
In general, what variant of English are you using for this article? I ask because I see both American/Canadian terminology ("railroad car)" and European/Australian terminology ("marshalling yard").
US military English. Checked this usage against the sources, and "marshalling yard" is what the US military historian uses. Looked at the manual on Joint Logistics and it says "marshalling yard" is the correct term on p. H-2. Hawkeye7(discuss) 20:06, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Huh. That's peculiar; in normal American English, using "marshalling yard" is never done, that's a distinctly British English term. But if that's the correct term in US military English, you are in the right to use such terminology. Thanks for checking. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 14:39, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In October 1945, it was turned over to the French. Might be worth noting this was after the conclusion of the war.
The Seine ports had figured prominently in the Overlord plan, but for the supply of the 21st Army Group. Not sure the "but" is necessary here. Suggest simply "The Seine ports had figured prominently in the Overload plan for the supply of the 21st Army Group".
The photo in the Rouen section is interesting, but I don't see how it relates directly to the prose there.
Logistical unit based in Rouen. Made this explicit. Hawkeye7(discuss) 20:06, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It was situated on the Scheldt River some 55 miles (89 km) inland, but unlike other ports on tidal estuaries, it could receive deep draft vessels on all tides, with a minimum depth at the quays of 27 feet (8.2 m), and the river was still 500 yards (460 m) wide at this point, which gave even the largest vessels ample room to maneuver. This is quite a long sentence, recommend splitting into two sentences.
Although the Red Ball Express was the first and most famous express highway delivery route, it was by no means the only one. The first of these was the Red Lion, which ran from 16 September to 12 October, and hauled 18,000 long tons (18,000 t) of supplies from Bayeux to Brussels. You say the Red Ball Express was first here, but immediately contradict that in the following sentence.
These were manufactured at Differdange in Luxembourg, and after it was liberated it began producing steel beams for the Allies. When did the liberation occur? Recommend adding this to the article.
Over 57,000 railroad cars of various types, including boxcars, flatcars, refrigerator cars and tanker cars were shipped to the continent. Link tank car.
Part of the problem was that the armies liked to keep a certain amount of supplies on wheels, using railroad cars as warehouses on wheels The use of "on wheels" twice in a row is a bit awkward. I recommend "using railroad cars as mobile warehouses" instead.
"From September onwards, an increasing volume of supplies came directly from the United States in Liberty ships that were stowed to make optimal use of cargo space." You have in this sentence "an increasing volume of supplies", that takes a singular verb, and "Liberty ships", that takes a plural noun. You say "were stowed", so I'm forced to assume the Liberty ships were stowed, not the volume of supplies. Yet that seems odd.
Trying to say too much in the one sentence. Re-worded. Hawkeye7(discuss) 19:28, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"quayside". "Dockside" seems more American. Not also that this link goes to a waterfront area in Newcastle-upon-Tyne.
"The German strategy was to conduct a fighting withdrawal to the Siegfried Line (which they called the Westwall) while holding and demolishing the ports and harbors. These would be held as long as possible." Probably these could be combined into one sentence (beginning after the parenthetical) " ... while holding the ports and harbors for as long as possible, and demolishing them".
That will work. Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7(discuss) 19:28, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You use this phrase multiple times.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:17, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"as they were being lured away to work on the higher-priority amphibious cargo ships and Boeing B-29 Superfortress programs." Lured? By what incentive? It makes it sound like they were choosing to work on the higher-priority projects, something which may be beyond what ordinary workers would be expected to do. Were there greater incentives such a spay or benefits for the higher priority projects.
Yes, they were offered better pay and conditions. Added. Hawkeye7(discuss) 20:50, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Naval harbormaster would take the Army's preferences ... office of the Naval Harbor Master" which?
Gone with "harbor master"; this seems to be the official military spelling. Hawkeye7(discuss) 20:50, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"439,660 long tons (446,720 t) of Army cargo discharged at Cherbourg by 13 September, just 38.4 percent was unloaded at quayside berths or over LST ramps; the rest was unloaded by DUKWs and lighters.[60]" This sentence should probably start with "Of".
"and he devolved the necessary authority" Hm. Similar issue. Maybe "devolved" could be "delegated"?
I think "devolved" is more correct, but changed as suggested. Hawkeye7(discuss) 20:50, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"pontons" Again, EngVar (multiple usages). I usually hear pontoons, i.e., the pontoon bridges they have near Seattle. Unless military usage is different.
Yes. Military usage is different here. For some reason the US military uses "ponton". In Australia we would say "pontoon". Hawkeye7(discuss) 20:50, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Phoenix breakwaters salvaged from the Mulberry harbour" You linked the mulberry, though it was a while ago. And should it be "harbor"?
"noted that the entrances Antwerp and Rotterdam could be blocked and mined" Missing word. Also "but 85,000 long tons (86,000 t) accumulated first two weeks of the port's operation."
That's all I have.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:36, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I know logistics isn't everyone's cup of tea, and reviews are greatly appreciated. Hawkeye7(discuss) 20:48, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Wehwalt, I was wondering if you felt in a position to either support or oppose this nomination? Obviously, neither is obligatory. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:58, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In the ETO, this consisted of the - what does "this" refer to here?
The shipping control agency. Expanded. Hawkeye7(discuss) 18:57, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
On 6 December, the JCS prohibited selective ... and then later ... ETOUSA managed to unload 115 ships in November? (I got confused with chronology a bit)
Ramsay, noted that the entrances to Antwerp and Rotterdam could be blocked - I can't see that in pdf but does it mean he warned this before 4 Sept? that the entrances may have been already blocked? or may be in the future?
It is on p. 50. He warned on 5 September. Added. Hawkeye7(discuss) 18:57, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I just made 2 minor tweaks to article. Everything else seems fine so trusting you'll tweak those inconsistencies, I'm ready to s'port. JennyOz (talk) 06:28, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Previously reviewed this at A-Class review, and take no issue with subsequent changes. Happy to Support as featured quality. IazygesConsermonorOpus meum 23:01, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Dick, 2016: any reason why you have not used the "|volume=" parameter? Similarly in other cases, where you abbreviate to "Vol." In the one case I checked it is given in full.
We had a problem with this parameter, which was resolved by a change to the module. Switched to using the parameter, and it now renders the same way. Hawkeye7(discuss) 19:13, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ludewig: any reason for the lower-case r in the title of the work?
Cite 69a clearly evidences that the 28th NCB worked at Le Havre, but how does it establish that "In addition to his own regiment, [Frank F. Bell] ultimately also had ... the Seabees of the 28th Naval Construction Battalion"?
Cite 2: "The American Operation Cobra, which commenced on 25 July, effected a turnaround in the operational situation by achieving a breakout from the Normandy lodgment area." is cited to Ruppenthal p. 4. Are you sure the page number is correct?
Not sure what happened there. Inserted a new reference. Hawkeye7(discuss) 01:00, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Where in Pogue 1954, pp. 366–367 does it support either part of "Port operations were interrupted by the German Ardennes offensive, which commenced on 16 December 1944"?
That is only there to support the date of the German Ardennes offensive. The rest is supported by the next footnote, Bykovsky and Larson p. 323 "Normal port operations at Antwerp were interrupted by the German counteroffensive of mid-December 1944. Because outlying depots and dumps, particularly those in the Liege area, were threatened, large quantities of supplies again accumulated in the port." Placed a duplicate of that footnote after the first comma, so Pogue is only supporting the middle clause. Hawkeye7(discuss) 19:49, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I had already increased them to upright=1.35. I was under the impression that this was the maximum, but on checking that only applies to the lead image (WP:IMAGESIZE). According to the MOS, we can go as high as upright=1.8 (MOS:IMGSIZE) So increased to that. Hawkeye7(discuss) 20:56, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There are a lot of lines, colours and symbols here - I'd suggest identifying the meaning of whichever you feel are most important for reader understanding. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:49, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
File:SC_191003-S_Stevedores_unload_POL.jpg: where is that author coming from? The source site doesn't credit the image. Ditto File:Bastogne_resupply1944_sm.jpg
United States Army Signal Corps image. The Signal Corps ID number (191003-S) can be found at the bottom left of the image and the Signal Corps logo at the bottom right. Ditto for the Bastogne image; its signal corps ID number (415376) can be found on the lower right. This was written on the photographic negative with a marker, and comes out white in the developed photograph. Hawkeye7(discuss) 20:56, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
File:Rade_de_Cherbourg-fr.svg: what is the source of the data presented?
Google maps according to the creator of the image. Adding the source of the information in the image is frowned upon at Commons, because people confuse it with the source of the image itself. Hawkeye7(discuss) 20:56, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've not heard that, do you have a link to that policy? It's a very odd idea - as long as it's clear what a source is for I wouldn't expect that to be a problem. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:49, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
On Wikipedia. On Commons there's an issue of what constitutes a derivative work. Hawkeye7(discuss) 23:23, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Could you share the policy or discussion on Commons where that is laid out? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:54, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Could not find it. Are there any outstanding issues related to this article? Hawkeye7(discuss) 21:28, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In the unlikely event that Nikkimaria feels there isn't, can I flag up that it is extremely unlikely that the closing coordinator will consider "Travail personnel avec [Google Maps]" to be a high quality source, or even a reliable one. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:32, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The source of these images (Crist) could be used for WP:V on Wikipedia, but that policy does not apply on Commons either. Instead Commons has an essay Commons:Verifiability which says "Commons does not require reliable sources or any independent evidence that an image or other file contains what it purports to contain." There is another essay, Commons:Evidence-based mapping, which says: "English Wikipedia has a well-earned reputation for valuing accuracy and verifiability in its texts. It also uses media files from Wikimedia Commons, which, however, has different rules than English Wikipedia. Commons values free artistic expression above all else, including accuracy and verifiability, as long as nobody's copyright is violated. Therefore, you can still 'get away with' a lot of unsourced, inaccurate and misleading visual information on Commons, especially in mapping."
This essay contains a section on English Wikipedia policies and conventions which summaries the results of two long discussions about this matter in May and July 2021, and the policies and guidelines that apply here on Wikipedia.
With great reluctance I have switched to the alternative multiple map. Hawkeye7(discuss) 20:06, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. An interesting piece. I made a few minor tweaks on my readthrough – feel free to delete anything inappropriate. Just two comments, neither of which will affect my support:
"Over 15,000 vehicles were deadlined": I'm not sure what "deadlined" means – as the term appears a few times, is there a way to translate?
Deadlined: "A military term used to describe the operational condition of a piece of equipment. It means the equipment in question is NMC [not military capable] or is broken down. Equipment can be deadlined for safety reasons such as fuel leaks, inop headlights, Missing seatbelts, etc." Urban dictionary Added a link to the wiktionary definition. Hawkeye7(discuss) 19:07, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"US forces would be supported over the Omaha and Utah landing beaches": "over"? I'd expect to see "through" the beaches, port, etc, but if this is an AmEng thing, then ignore
Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the ((featured article candidates)) template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Hog FarmTalk 04:02, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
