The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ealdgyth via FACBot (talk) 25 April 2020 [1].

Battle of the Aegates[edit]

Nominator(s): Gog the Mild (talk) 23:36, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The third and final installment of my trio of naval battles from the First Punic War. It was the battle which decided the war (*spoiler alert*) - the Romans won. Interestingly (I think its interesting) archeological remains have been found on the seabed just where the primary sources said they would be. And recovered and examined. I am indebted to JennyOz, CPA-5 and Buidhe for their sterling efforts in removing so many of my foibles, faults and flaws. It is now, I hope, ready for your examination. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:36, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review—pass
Source checks
Gah! I'm going senile. I even thought it odd that she was writing outside her usual period as I keyed it in. Fixed.
Thanks Buidhe. It was meant to support "The main source for almost every aspect of the First Punic War is the historian Polybius", but I later inserted cite 2 and didn't reshuffle, which I now have done. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:58, 20 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

buidhe 23:41, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note—this article is currently undergoing an A-class review. AFAIK, that's allowed though. buidhe 23:41, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well no, actually -- I realise ACR isn't explicitly listed with PR and GAN in the FAC instructions, but we've traditionally treated simultaneous ACRs the same way, so one will need to close. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:03, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Ian. I had a vague recollection of that; but querying MilHist it was suggested otherwise. ACR now closed. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:28, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Suport from Harry[edit]

Was gonna comment at the ACR but you're here now so what the hell. All in all, looking excellent. Just a few minor quibbles.

Unlinked.
Unlinked.
Unlinked.
I don't see this one. If one clicks on "board enemy ships", why should one be surprised to see an article on naval boarding?
I wouldn't normally expect to see a phrase like that linked, and I guess I expected the link to take me somewhere less "ordinary".
I'm not sure that's an actionable comment, or if it was meant to be. I am familiar with the concept of naval boarding and its variants down the millennia, but I wouldn't expect an "average reader" to be, so would prefer to leave it in. (If it went to somewhere less "ordinary", wouldn't that make it an Easter egg?)
I would have thought the average reader would probably understand the concept of naval boarding (though I must admit I wasn't aware the Romans used it) in the sense of people from one ship moving onto another ship. But it's certainly not something I'd withhold support over. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:22, 20 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Umm. Are we talking at cross purposes here?
Sorry. Should have listed that under "overlinking". I would expect the average reader to know what crucifixion was.
Indeed. Unlinked.
Unlinked.
Unlinked.
I don't see why linking "following wind" to following sea creates an Easter egg. Any chance that you could explain that one in simple words for me Harry?
The first sentence of the main article (ie, not the lead) of following sea reads "Sailors use this term synonymously with the points of sail below a beam reach, since the wind direction is generally the same as the sea direction"
I'm not sure the link is necessary, but I won't push it if you want to keep it.
I prefer to keep the detail. How about 'Mainland Italy south of the River Arno had recently been unified under Roman control'?
That works well.
Done.
I dislike it too, and it's a bit embarrassing that it slipped through. Thanks. Fixed.

—HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:44, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Harry and many thanks for your time and effort. Your points above all addressed, some with queries. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:39, 16 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
A few replies above. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:17, 17 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again Harry. Your further thoughts addressed, one via a comment. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:58, 20 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No worries. Just FYI, your first set of changes (the ones we agreed on) haven't been made. Did you forget to save the page? ;) HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:22, 20 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies Harry. One of the Wiki-beta-gadgets hiccups on me about once a week. Most annoying. I usually check for things like reviews, but obviously I forgot. Or I really am going senile. Anyway, now done, and checked. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:55, 20 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

FunkMonk[edit]

The plan is to end the mini-series abruptly and unsatisfactorily; follow up with a sequel; then recap with a director's cut; which will spawn a multitude of spinoff articles of variable quality. "Always leave 'em wanting more."
Not sure how that got through the duplink highlighter. Thanks. Fixed.
Gog the Mild (talk) 20:56, 16 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done.
The Romans held an annual five-yearly census, which determined tax bands, eligibility to vote and liability for military service, so it was taken seriously. Lots of them are quoted in the ancient sources. The source I cite reads "The census of citizens had fallen by some 17% of the total, not couting their allies." (Most sources reckon that the allies had suffered worse.) Or Goldsworthy, p. 122 "Roman citizens registered by the censurs as 292,234 in 265-264 ... only 241,712 in 247-246." Honest, it is as nailed down as anything more than 200 years ago can be.
Done.
D'oh! I can hardly believe that I did that! I even reintroduced it into Battle of Drepana!! Now fixed in multiple articles, and thank you.
The source cited. The Carthaginians were unsure when their Sicilian garrisons would run out of food and/or motivation and surrender, Hence the time pressure. I have changed to 'and did not have sufficient time'. I agree that that it is probably unencyclopedic to over-impute motivations, even with sources. And dug up a more specific source to really nail it down.
Hi there FunkMonk. Thanks for stopping by again, and apologies that the first thing you had to do was to repeat half of your grumbles from last time. Your comments to date addressed above.
And, inspired by your fondness for them, I have brought forward the release schedule: First Punic War is at ACR; Battle of the Lipari Islands is at GAN (the very last of the naval battles); Battle of Adys and Battle of Tunis should be GANing soon - the first possibly tomorrow. So there should be plenty of First Punic War things for you coming along. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:09, 21 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Cool, I'll hopefully be back in the GAN game soon, the Coronavirus semi-lockdown around here hasn't exactly given me more spare time, as I can work from home... Rest of the review below. FunkMonk (talk) 23:49, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Let me know when you have a GAN up, and I'll see if I fancy it.
No metadata, so one can't tell. I understand that some of the rams have been on tour, so it could have been anywhere. Is it important?
Good idea. Thanks. Done.
But you are managing better than this native speaker. Good spot. Fixed.
Oops. How embarrassing. Fixed.
@FunkMonk: Very insightful. Thank you. All done.

CommentsSupport by CPA-5[edit]

I won't do a review for now mate. I didn't really support the ARC but most of my comments were addressed though I think there were some points I wanted to talk about or it was about the First Punic War one or another. Anyway I won't do this one, 'cause just heard the news, we'll get a lockdown tomorrow noon and everything's changing rapidly. Even schools are closed since Monday and normally I had a deadline in mid-April at our project (which is after the break and Easter) but they changed it to 25 March which is month lost thanks a lot corona. I won't be that much online until I don't know 26th? Who knows I'd still be online and minor edit here and there but I don't really have time to reply to them. It's really sad because now I barely can visit my dad for like a month or even longer 'cause he has asthma and could be dangerous for his health. :/ Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 22:21, 17 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have changed the redirect.
"With the state's coffers exhausted, the Senate approached Rome's wealthiest citizens for loans to finance the construction of one ship each, repayable from the reparations to be imposed on Carthage once the war was won, and to donate slaves as oarsmen. The result was a fleet of approximately 200 quinqueremes, built, equipped, and crewed without government expense." from "New Roman fleet" section.
Done.
Done.
:-) Sloppy editing by me. Fixed.
I blame the sources. Flipped and linked.
No. But I found something in another source, and at the risk of becoming unfocused have added it.
Done.
In what way?
  • In this way "Keep piped links as intuitive as possible. Per the principle of least astonishment, make sure that the reader knows what to expect when clicking on a link." from MOS:EGG. I don't think an average reader would know there were Berbers in Libya and the article doesn't clarify Berbers in Libya.
I am more confused. No Berbers are mentioned in the article.
I have stripped out the Libyans, and just left the Numidians - most of the Libyans who lived around Carthage were Numidians. Does that work for you?
  • That works for me. Cheers.
In what way do you think it is an Easter egg? No, it is the Hanno linked to.
  • Like before, this sentence doesn't clarify which Hanno it is; I think a toponymic is needed and link Hanno instead of "the general" that'd make a little bit clearer.
Link repositioned. Only one Hanno is mentioned in the article, so there is no need to disambiguate him.
  • In the section "264–250 BC" it mentions Hanno the Great so maybe that's why it could create confusion?
Ah. I missed him. T'other Hanno now introduced properly.
Done.
Cargos is entirely correct usage. I note that the Ngram shows it becoming more popular and "cargoes" less so. Nevertheless, changed.
  • I've found out that Ngram also says "cargoes" is in general popular than its counterpart.
Done.
Done.
Tweaked.
Done.
Done.
Done.
Click on the link and find out :-).
Done

All right this is done, I hope I got everything here. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 12:51, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@CPA-5: many thanks as usual for your usual thorough job. All of your comments addressed. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:32, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Replied to your responses. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 11:43, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
CPA-5, and ditto. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:41, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@CPA-5: Hanno sorted; image - give me a clue. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:47, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@CPA-5: Cheers. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:05, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've tweaked some things but it's now fine to me. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 11:19, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support!Review from CaptainEek[edit]

Always love a good naval battle! Do note that I'm counting this for the WP:WikiCup. An excellent article, just a few nitpicks from me:

Done.
I have gone with "It was the final and deciding battle of the 23-year-long First Punic War.."
It's a typo. Thank you. Fixed.
Good point. Now that, at your suggestion, "deciding" has been added to the third "between Rome and Carthage" can be deleted from it without it looking painfully short.
There is no article. It is usually, in the sources, considered part of the aftermath of the Battle of Cape Hermaeua; on which there isn't an article either, but which is red linked. I will write the article on it one day, but not today. I will red link to just the strom if you wish, but I am sceptical that an article on it will ever be written, and more so that it will say anything that won't be in the proposed Battle of Cape Hermaeua article.
A red link to the battle of Cape Hermaeua works for me
Ahoy CaptainEek, in a moment of lockdown boredom I have written Battle of Cape Hermaeum. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:10, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Gog the Mild Nicely done! I've rated it and did a bit of cleanup. Very interesting material. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 20:32, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what the query is here. But, yes, according to Bagnall; see here. Also in other sources, see, eg, pp. 143-4 of Lazenby, here.
I think that it must be. Which part of it looks odd?
Heh, in American English its written as one word, "percent"
Fair point. Done.
It would indeed. And thank you for doing the work for me. Cut and pasted in.
It came with the article when I picked it up. I know nothing about creating maps, although others have generously created them for me on occasion. (IMO the one in Battle of Cape Ecnomus is a stunner.) I considered this one just about this side of acceptable, and so decided o=not to 'use up' any good will by requesting a replacement; which couls take some time, or may never get picked up.

All in all, a very nice article, very well done! CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 01:02, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks CaptainEek, glad you like it. And many thanks for stopping by and going through this one. You make some good points above, and they are all now responded to. Gog the Mild (talk) 10:46, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild: Good fixes, happy to support! CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 20:29, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Cap'n, I appreciate that. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:35, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Query for the co-ordinators[edit]

Hi Ian, given the state of play above, can I ask permission to nominate another? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:35, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sure you can ask permission. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:35, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oh and permission granted, suh! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:37, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. And don't give up the day job. ;-) Gog the Mild (talk) 22:39, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support from JennyOz[edit]

I had a look over this last month and now have only one quick quibble...

Thanks Jenny. I am constantly amazed at my inability to proof read my own work. Nice job in spotting this. Now fixed. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:22, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I'm back. Sorry. I noticed a couple of things in your most recent changes and just have to ask.

Oh. Very clever. Done.
Not sure about this. I don't think that there are any non-Carthaginian Hannos, so I don't see what adding this adds. Although I have deleted "the".
Sorry Jenny, not getting your point here.
D'oh! Indeed not. Fixed.
I get confused too. The Battle of Cape Hermaea has nothing to do with the Battle of Adys. (I have recently had the latter promoted to GA.) Or very little. I don't know why it was linked in the box. I have gone with the spelling in the sources I have so I can red link it and not have it redirected to an inappropriate article. I may well have mistakenly linked it myself, before I realised where it was pointing to. I really need to write the stub to stop these issues. Or just be bold and tidy up the box.
Hi Jenny, in a moment of lockdown boredom I have written Battle of Cape Hermaeum; and tidied up the templates. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:10, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Bonza Gog! Looking good! (small because I'm barely game to ask... so the Battle of Cape Hermaeum (254 BC) is a different scuffle to the Battle of Cape Hermaea, (per my pipe spelling question above), and still showing red and fought in 255 BC in this Aegates article? JennyOz (talk) 13:31, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
JennyOz No, no - always ask. I had gone through all of the relevant FPW articles standardising on the RS's preferred spelling and sorting out the templates, but somehow managed to miss this one! Which is typical of me. Many thanks for picking it up. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:09, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's all, my support still stands of course. JennyOz (talk) 17:42, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Jenny, I am pleased that someone is paying attention. If you have any more like those, please flag them up. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:14, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from HaEr48 (support)[edit]

Nicely written, well-referenced and enjoyable to read. Just some small comments from me:

Good point. Done.
Good spot. I have done both.
Done.

Done.

Nope. I would need to attempt to commission a new map, or remove this one entirely. I "inherited" it with the article, and I am not really happy with it. As say above to Captain Eek "I know nothing about creating maps, although others have generously created them for me on occasion. (IMO the one in Battle of Cape Ecnomus is a stunner.) I considered this one just about this side of acceptable, and so decided not to 'use up' any good will by requesting a replacement; which could take some time, or may never get picked up."
I could link to Ancient Carthage#Government if you think it useful, but the only mention there of the senate is the bracketed "(Roman sources speak of a Carthaginian "Senate", and Greek ones of a "council of Elders" or a gerousia)". It is not covered by the list in senate.
I see, it won't be that useful then. Fine to leave unlinked. HaEr48 (talk) 21:53, 13 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
They don't. That's the "their analysis and the recovery of further items are ongoing" bit. Bear in mind that they are hypothesizing from just the rams. They haven't actually recovered any ships, or even bits of. The best source to cover all of this in detail is the second work in "Further reading". It goes directly to your point, but sadly is a masters thesis, so I can't use it in the article. You can see here that I have a long standing request in for extracts from what seems to be the only copy[!] in the public domain of the book by the archeologists who recovered the artefacts. This may (or may not) shed more light.
Hi HaEr48 and many thanks for taking a look at this. Your comments are very useful, and insightful - thank you. All addressed bar the corvus/manoeuvring one. I agree with you there, in broad terms, but give me a little time to think how best to phrase it, and to make sure that I can source it. I'll re-ping you once I have. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:15, 12 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@HaEr48: Done. [2] See what you think. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:57, 13 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild: I like it and I think it's more relevant too. Suggest finding another phrase for "spring its timbers" (not easy to understand for non-native speaker), but if not possible it's fine too because hopefully it can be inferred from context. 21:53, 13 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your responses. I've checked all of them and I have no more to add. Happy to support the nomination of this excellent article. HaEr48 (talk) 21:55, 13 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@HaEr48: Thank you for your support, and even more for helping to improve the article. Re your previous comment, I have changed to the less exact but hopefully more readily understandable "to break loose its timbers". Gog the Mild (talk) 22:00, 13 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Harrias[edit]

I wasn't aware that you could, as the template instructions don't mention it. It took a fit of trial and error to work it out. Done.
Added "only".
Done.
Done.
True. Consistentised.
"the" added.
First time I've been told not to be technically correct! Gone with "thus"
Really! Wikitionaryed.
It should.
So clarified.
There can, but it is easier to look up one and in line attribute, than five and list them here, so I have gone for the lazy option.

I'm going to break off here, because this point is really confusing my understanding of the Prelude and New Roman fleet section. Nice work until this point, and it might just be my tiredness that is confusing me! Harrias talk 19:27, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct. Another reviewer wanted what you were seeing as the second paragraph of Background moving there, feeling that it was more sensible to have the information on ships nearer to the actual battle. But I can't make it work chronologically like that. I should probably have dug my feet in at the time rather than taking the easy and agreeable option. (It kinda made sense then - the first paragraph of what is n.) I have cut and pasted it back to how I wrote it, retweaked it slightly and - hopefully - it now flows more readily. If challenged, I shall point to your confusion. See what you think. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:40, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
And now, the conclusion...
Removed. Swapped in a standard map of the islands.
Correct. Fixed
Changed to "Lilybaeum, Drepana and Hamilcar's army". Does that help?
Yes, thank you. Harrias talk 15:20, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed.
Good point. Done.
Well it was. He explicitly said that all of the ships were quinqueremes. The fact that modern scholars may think he was generalising doesn't alleviate that. It is only contrary to how modern scholars are inclined to read his account. And even then, they always come back to "Polybius turns out to [be] fairly reliable" and "Polybius' account is usually to be preferred when it differs with any of our other accounts". All of the sources I have on the battle predate this hypothesis, and it is interesting to see how they uncritically take Polybius's word that they were quinqueremes. The thesis, sadly only a masters, by one of the archaeologists involved under "Further reading" is interesting in this respect.
Fair. Harrias talk 15:20, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Umm. I can't find a ref=harv in the Further reading nor a "nowiki" template anywhere in the article. A little reluctantly I have taken The Histories out of the cite template. Does that resolve the issue?
Hmmm, strange. One of the scripts was flagging it up as an issue. The change you've made has sorted it, but I admit that I can't see why it was doing it originally. Harrias talk 15:20, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am not entirely sure what you want with the second part, as the link currently goes where I mean it to. I have tweaked. Does that address your concern?
Essentially, I was asking for it to be formatted as a citation would be; ie include the author details, date of publication etc. Harrias talk 15:20, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, a really nice read (as usual). The image/text consistency issues might be tricky if you want to retain an image with the battle timeline, but otherwise mostly minor issues.

I was never really happy with the map, but it seemed just about serviceable. I should have looked at it in detail prior to nominating, but with images I tend to go straight to licencing and sourcing. Lesson learned. I hope.

I can't remember if I mentioned above, but I will claim WikiCup points for this review. I would also be very grateful if you would consider taking a look at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/2009 Women's Cricket World Cup Final/archive2.

Sure. Now on my to do list.

Harrias talk 14:07, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Harrias. Well earned WikiCup points. Your points now addressed. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:56, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I made a couple of replies above regarding the Further reading section, but they won't make a difference to whether this is a FA or not! Harrias talk 15:20, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Harrias Yeah, I got that on Polybius too. I assumed it was a bug and ignored it. Polakowski: tha should 'a' said lad. It is now fully cited. And has a big brown harv warning, which I am going to ignore. Thanks again, and good luck in the cup. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:42, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

No, it is not certain, to me. But only quinqueremes are noted as sunk or damaged in the sources. There is mention that transports sailed with the Carthaginian warships, but no mention of them in the battle. To OR, it seems highly likely that when the Roman fleet was sighted coming straight at the Carthaginians the transports prudently withdrew, probably ordered to do so. They would have been easy pickings for the galleys otherwise. Regardless, they are mentioned in the sources as being prepared, so I have also mentioned them. There is no mention of any casualties, if indeed they suffered any, or were even present at the battle, so I haven't mentioned them.
Apologies. Different sources. The consensus is 10,000. Text amended to match. Sourcing tweaked. No, no RS discusses even loosely possible death figures. The only work I have come across where there is speculation about this is Polakowski; but as this is a master's thesis I have not used him as a source and relegated him to Further reading.
I had used an upper case "P". Fixed.
Whoops. Too many Hoyos's. Fixed.
Link removed.
It is. Done.
Page numbers and volume added.
Removed the mention. (Readers can see the photograph and draw their own conclusions.)
ISBN from the work's title page now used.
UK. Location changed to London.
I suppose not. Standardised.
Fixed.
I assume that you consider The Site of the Battle of the Aegates Islands at the End of the First Punic War. Fieldwork, Analyses and Perspectives, 2005–2015 to be a periodical, and so have removed the location.
He doesn't, IMO. Which is why I haven't used him in the article, nor cited him, and why he is only in further reading.

Nikkimaria (talk) 22:49, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Nikkimaria. Apologies that there was such a long list of sloppiness on this one. All of your comments addressed. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:40, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Brief comment from The ed17[edit]

Hi The ed17 It's "a device which enabled them to grapple and board enemy vessels more easily" and is Wikilinked. As it doesn't feature in this battle, that seemed enough for a passing mention. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:49, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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