The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:53, 6 September 2009 [1].

Cosmo Gordon Lang[edit]

Nominator(s): Brianboulton (talk) 23:52, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Toolbox

Lang, according to his biographers, was an enigma. The youngest archbishop in England in recent times, be began with great promise and large expectations, but in the end, by most accounts, he fell rather short – he himself judged his career a failure. Largely forgotten now, between the wars he was a major figure in British life, and touched many national and international events. Many thanks to the helping hands who monitored the article's progress from start-class, especially those who participated in the very thorough peer review.Brianboulton (talk) 23:52, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support I thoroughly reviewed the article's prose for consistency during the peer review and see no point in doing it a second time. Compelling article about an interesting character of whom I had only briefly heard. Only point I have remaining is that I'm not entirely clear as to whether the officiating clergy at his baptism was or was not his father, perhaps that could be made a little clearer.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:17, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Later commentators have speculated... homosexual". I'd like to see something much better than "channel four" for this... elsewise, it's just gossip. Besides, you said "commentators" (plural). Ling.Nut (talk) 07:46, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I disagree with you about the status of the Channel 4 source. The "Monarchy" television series and the books accompanying it are the work of Dr David Starkey, a respected academic historian, and cannot be dismissed as "just gossip". Other commentators have been more circumspect about Lang's sexuality. For example, the ODNB biog gives the text of Lang's emotional letter to Wilfred Parker without specifically mentioning sexual feelings, but the letter's inclusion looks like a nudge. Lockhart is even more evasive, but he was writing in 1948 when evasion on such matters was the order of the day. The reference to possible homosexual leanings is within a balanced paragraph. However, if you think the case is not made, I will be happy to withdraw this sentence - there are more important aspects of Lang's life to argue about.Brianboulton (talk) 09:00, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • If you can find a number of sources that allege it, then fire away. But channel 4 doesn't say maybe, it says "yeah, he was gay." I'd love to log into their website and put a ((fact)) tag on such a bold, bald assertion. So.... if you can back it up further, please do so. If not, please do delete. Ling.Nut (talk) 09:31, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Well, there's this, from The Times 1 July 2003, which says: "There have been many closeted gay bishops who have served the Church well, from Cosmo Gordon Lang to..." Remember, I'm not making the claim that Lang was homosexual, I'm merely saying that some modern commentators have said he was, and we now have two quotes from what I consider reliable sources. I have also altered the text of the article slightly: "Some later commentators have suggested...". I think that is fair. Brianboulton (talk) 14:13, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm poking about in whatever sources I can find, now... and am wondering if the Prayer Book controversy isn't a bit under-represented in the text...
  • Mmm, I saw McKibbin giving specific stats for the defeat of the Prayer Book in the House of Commons, second time around was 266-220 (p. 277, 18n). I dunno if I would call that "narrow", though it's certainly far less than a drubbing.. can we get more specific numbers?
  • "Lang knew the nature of Edward's social circle..." Yeah I know, the full details should be in the abdication crisis article, not this one. But this is unnecessarily cryptic.. a word or two of greater detail, perhaps? After all, it was prominent in his infamous speech, and there was apparently an editorial in the Times after Lang's speech which focused the brunt of its scorn on those social circles rather than the king.
  • Mmmm, I'm looking at Manwaring pp. 12-13, and I don't see any connection at all between Lang and the national Mission of Repentance and Hope. What did I miss?
  • Eh? Kent, John (1992). William Temple: Church, State and Society in Britain, 1880-1950, Cambridge University Press, says lang was "often unwell, and Temple, now Archbishop of York, had to stand in for him from time to time." It also says, "When he was not ill, Lang lacked energy." Did I overlook these health issues in the article?
    • I didn't think that Lang's health issues were that significant. He seems to have enjoyed good health apart from a period around 1929-32, shortly after his Canterbury appointment. I have added a line, with citations, about his illness in that period. Brianboulton (talk) 13:08, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have to go now, but am becoming more & more convinced that the Prayer Book issue is under-represented in the body text and the lead. I think it was one of the two greatest issues in his time as archbishop; a political and religious struggle (albeit a far lesser one than say the Investiture controversy.) Ling.Nut (talk) 11:07, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, it was important, but in the context of an article about Lang's life, I think this issue is properly and adequately represented. Obviously there is plenty more to be said, but this topic is not the focus of this article. There does not appear to be a Wiki article on the Prayer Book revision controversies of the 1920s, but I believe that, or an article on recent Church of England History, would be a proper place for an extended discussion of the topic. Brianboulton (talk) 13:57, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can you take a look at the alt text for File:Chapel of St Stephen Martyr, Canterbury Cathedral.jpg as it does not read right, probably just a typo. Keith D (talk) 19:03, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There was a typo ("are" for "area"). Now fixed - very well spotted! Thanks indeed Brianboulton (talk) 21:13, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re homosexuality: Your own sources said that he got hot 'n bothered over the young girls at a chocolate factory. That hardly seems homosexual per se.
    • Lang was an enigma, with contradictory traits (see Lockhart's summary of his complex character). My job is to record what has been said by reliable sources, on all aspects of his character, not to make judgements. Brianboulton (talk) 18:53, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not at all done thinking about the Prayer Book controversy . I agree that perhaps it needs its own (brief) article, as you suggest. But even so, this is a key event in Lang's period as Cantuar. Its focus needs to be sharpened; its details collected together and highlighted. It shows his lack of leadership, as you noted far down in the article... It may show a lack of insight: one source said he "badly misread the establishment mood" of government. It shows the political currents (Liberal vs. Labour; see Lang's oft-cited quote about the coal mining issue) and the religious currents (staunch Protestant laity vs. Catholic-wannabe church leaders). ...as you noted, it passed through the religious decision process with overwhelming support... Far more was at stake than simply a prayer book, it was a significant move away from mainstream Protestantism... The defeat of the revision apparently led to discouragement among many clergy, who saw it as an establishmentarian smackdown. Etc. I'm actually not talking about a huge rewrite here. These issues just need to be explained well—though currently they are not.
    • I am a bit puzzled by your analysis. You say the Prayer Book controversy is "a key event in Lang's period as Cantuar", but in fact the House of Commons rejections came before Lang ascended to Canterbury. He thereupon made it a non-issue, which it remained until after his – and his successor's – departure. Yes, he was criticized for this lack of leadership by Bishop Bell, but others considered his inactivity a wise move which faclitated an eventual solution. In the controversy itself, up to 1928, Lang's role was that of a lieutenant to Archbishop Davidson; as Lockhart says, "the story belongs to Davidson rather than Lang". It would be possible to include a little more material, about Lang's influence is bringing about the overwhelming Church vote in favour, or about his misreading of the House of Commons situation, but it would not be right to elevate his role above that of loyal supporter of his senior Archbishop. If Lang's "oft-cited quote" is the one about a fair day's work and a fair day's wage, this was made in 1912, outside the time frame of the Prayer Book controversy and, I would have thought, with no relevance to it. I have no quarrel with your other assertions, but they are basically not about Lang. Anything added to the article in this respect must focus on his role. Brianboulton (talk) 18:53, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Two broad questions that I think were not answered adequately: First, why was his rise so meteoric? Second, and at the same time both more interesting and more important, why was he so ineffectual after he became Cantuar? Ling.Nut (talk) 01:55, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • The first question cannot be answered objectively. Lang wasn't (like Temple or Davidson) the son or son-in-law of an Archbishop, nor was he nurtured in the Church of England; he was a Scots Presbyterian. He wasn't wealthy, had no family influence, and how he rose so quickly is a matter of conjecture. Was he clever, lucky or both? As far as I can within the principle of NPOV, I have marshalled the facts, but the question remains open. As to the second question, "ineffectual" is your word; the general consensus is softer, that he could have done more than he did, but I have not seen him described as ineffectual. Why he fell short of expectations is a matter about which writers have speculated, and which I believe I have summarised in the Assessment section. I am still studying sources for new material that can shed more light on this complicated life. Brianboulton (talk) 18:53, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by TonyTheTiger (talk · contribs)

03:30, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Comments by Jappalang

Childhood and family

University of Glasgow

Oxford

Towards ordination

Leeds

Portsea

Stepney

St Paul's Cathedral

Appointment

World War I

Postwar years

International and dosmetic politics

Abdication crisis

Assessment

Bibliography

General

Images

Some of the above are just suggestions (my prose sucks), so... Since my knowledge about the Archibishop of Canterbury is basically restricted to jokes about Henry II's attitude, I am commenting on what appears to be lacking from the viewpoint of a reader fresh to the subject. Looking forward to support once the above are addressed. Jappalang (talk) 08:10, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • The homosexual bit is much, much better. It no longer leaves so many open questions, which previously gave it almost the air of a swipe at his character.
  • I saw at least one quote (dig it up tomorrow) which said the Prayer Bok thing made Lang more conservative (in the general sense). I think this should go in he article and the lead. Ling.Nut (talk) 13:26, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with she link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:52, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I reviewed the article earlier and had no quibbles. I did notice the bit about the EB, but that's not enough to hold back my support. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:52, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support I added some comments at peer review; I was mightily impressed with the article then, and the fine tuning arising from the above comments has improved it still further. Tim riley (talk) 12:44, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
More