The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 20:49, 22 May 2009 [1].

Elwood Haynes[edit]

Nominator(s): Charles Edward (Talk) 15:00, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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A week and half has been spent researching the topic and the article has been put through a successful GA review. I believe it is now comprehensive and ready to be a featured article. Charles Edward (Talk) 15:00, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Question When I put "Elwood Haynes" into my library database, I also get this biography: Elwood Haynes : 1857-1925 : inventor, scientist, metallurgist, industrialist, educator, philanthropist by Wallace Huffman. Any reason why it wasn't used, considering the small number of sources available on Haynes? Awadewit (talk) 18:57, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I went to my library to find that book specifically, but they did not have it. But that is where I found Alloys and Automobiles, by Gray. Which I found to be very comprehensive. When used along with the book on the Haynes-Apperson company and what was available from the Indiana Historical Society, I feel that I was able to get a complete picture of Haynes. Charles Edward (Talk) 20:07, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
How can you be sure that the article is comprehensive if you haven't seen the book, though? I would offer to help, since I have access to the book, but I can't until next week - this is finals week. Awadewit (talk) 02:49, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's apparently just 20 pages long and published by a local historical society 45 years ago. It's worth tracking down but having seen a few biographies like this I wouldn't get my hopes up. --Chiliad22 (talk) 03:21, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am familiar with several books by Ralph Gray, from which about 60% of the article is sourced, and I have found his books to always be very comprehensive. It is the only biography aside from the one you mentioned that I found while searching for sources, and after reading it I believe it is truly exhausting on the topic. The primary notability of Haynes is his inventions and companies, and secondarily his brief political career and part in the Indiana Gas Boom. A third tier would perhaps be his philanthropy and awards, and a couple lawsuits he was involved in. For the most important parts of his life (autos and inventions) I was able to get quite a few sources, and used the best few for the article. Between them all, I think all the important and secondary aspects of the life are covered well, and to a fair degree the third tier of things. Charles Edward (Talk) 12:38, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I'm satisfied. Thanks. Awadewit (talk) 03:21, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Without a spare tire, Haynes was unable to run in the contest. The race was held on April 7, and thousands of spectators turned out. Duryea's car won first place and a German Benz came in second. Another contest was held in which Haynes won a prize for most intuitive design." I am confused about the contest and the race. If Haynes was unable to run in the contest, but he won first place in the race? I guess the contest and the race are different?

—Mattisse (Talk) 20:54, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Yes that is correct, there were apparently different events, the auto race was one event, and a design contest was another. I suspect there were others too, but my source didn't mention them. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 02:05, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would "preliminary contest" be inaccurate? I actually spent quite a bit of time trying to figure this out when I was reading it. —Mattisse (Talk) 16:47, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The source indicates the design competition occurred after the race itself, although it does not come out and say so. I would like to write an article on the race if I could find another source.. I think I will try to do that this afternoon. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 16:56, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose on images as follow:

US public domain determination is primarily based on publication, not creation date. To re-iterate, creation is not publication. Publication involves the distribution (or display) to the public of copies. Elwood Haynes museum was set up May 28, 1967.[2] Even if we take it that the publishing date is on that date (assuming that they created brochures throughout the year, showing all the photos in each brochure); that could mean 95 years of copyright protection. There are about 564 books, published in 1890-1922, on Elwood Haynes.[3] Photos in them (including any of the above that appears in them) can be used without issues. Jappalang (talk) 22:59, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I will check these out to see what I can find, several of these images are in a 1919 book called Indiana and Indianans, which would make them PD. When I uploaded them I put the source where I got them though, which was from photos at the Haynes museum, they are higher quality than screen shoots of the book which can be accessed online. I would think the picture of his wife and children, as well as the photos of himself would be fair use though. I will check out sources tommorrow and figure out which one cans be salvaged for use. Thanks! —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 02:14, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A couple questions also. The Haynes Muesem is owned by the state of Indiana, which would be the owner of all the items in it, presumably. The state does hold copyrights to works, but it waives all restrictions on government owned works and allows them to be reproduced. Also, at least two of the images are on display in the Smithsonian Institution exhibit, which is US government owned, would those count as PD? —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 02:33, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If you can note for those images that appear in the 1919 publication, that would be great (take a look at File:Elwood P. Haynes.jpg on how it can be stated, although a simple "appeared on p. x of this <title>" would also do fine). Indiana government works are in the public domain? Regardless, it would be similar to federal law, in which even though federal works are in public domain, copyrights of private works may be transfered to the government on donation, hence retaining the rights of protection for the stipulated period. It would be safer (and easier) to determine their copyright status through pre-1923 publication. Jappalang (talk) 03:27, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, the Indiana Code, 5-14-3, states that all Indiana owned works and public records can be copied without limitations, although the state holds copyright, it waives all restrictions on using its works. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 12:15, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed several of the images you listed. I have left three of them that I think could be fair use, please let me know what you think. I have also provided original sources for the others to show they are public domain, as I could recall. I believe some of the ones I have removed are also PD, but I can't recall for if they were from a newspaper article or what... If I get a chance I will return to the museum to and write down original sources and put them back into the article. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:57, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I guess just my comment they are from certain places are not enough to establish where they are from. Not any different than any other claim made... Hmm. I will remove all the questionable ones for now. When I get a chance I will try to get page numbser, exact source information, etc and readd them to the article. I think there will still be enough images to pass this review. I have moved in a few definantly PD images from some other article to use for now. I feel they are less useful though. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 23:34, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose struck. Images as of this revision are verifiably in the public domain or appropriately licensed. Jappalang (talk) 02:11, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

One of the most interesting articles I've read! As you've written it, Haynes was a fascinating man and integral to automobile history. I had no idea that one of the first American cars was from Indiana. These seem to be my only concerns, all of which are probably me just being picky:

It is interesting! Aparently, Indiana rivaled Michigan for the first years of the industry. Studabaker, Haynes, Apperson, and others all were in Indiana. The Indy 500 was spawned by all that. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 02:30, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Should the 500 perhaps be mentioned in the legacy, then? Either way, I Support. Reywas92Talk 23:20, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think Haynes personally had anything to do with the 500, but it developed because of all the car companies in Indiana at the turn of the century. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 01:40, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Karanacs. I found this to be an interesting article on a topic I knew nothing about. It is very, very close to FA status, but I think there are a few little niggles that need to be taken care of first.

Karanacs (talk) 18:16, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I will work on these right away. The laborors had unionized and threatened a strike unless their wages were raised to a rate Haynes thought was too high - Haynes was not much of a buisness leader (he was much more involved in development parts of his buisnesses), and already had alot on his plate with the auto company, so rather than fight them he sold the company. Union Carbine absorbed their union into their own, and that resolved the problems without and strike. I will try to work a brief explanation like that into the article. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 18:31, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have tried to pare the article back a bit by removing some of the less releveant parts. I did leave the one New York Parade, since he got arrested there it seems to me to be worth inclusion. I have also tried to tighten and break up some of the longer sentances. I am not the best copy-editor though, so problems like that are not always apparent to me.. I will continue to read through it again to see if I can find anything else. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 21:27, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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